Official Luthiers Forum!

I was browsing the OLF this morning and read the phrase "cheap Chinese copy" and it got me thinking....

A couple of days ago one of the jobs that I did was a $500 Recording King from China. Of course the name "Recording King" is now just a name and had nothing to do with it's heritage of once being produced by G*bson....

The reason why this brand new instrument came to us was that the 4th fret had been loose and as such was proud of the rest of the fret plane. The current steward (owner...) of this pretty nice guitar had attempted some shade tree Lutherie (STL) and filed the proud and spongy fret down in an effort to get it to keep from buzzing.

Although his approach was off the mark in that the fret remained loose and spongy I give him credit for trying and even more credit for knowing when to quit and seek assistance....

The fix was/is easy, remove the 4th, pitch it, install a very slightly higher new fret, glue the new fret AND all existing frets down since fret retention on this one was already the issue. This followed by a precision fret dress, set-up, and Bob's this guy's uncle.

All went well, the client was thrilled and also had lots of questions about the care and feeding of his new ax.

What's notable about this cheap Chinese copy is that depending on one's perspective it is not all that cheap. Nor is it by any means a bad guitar. Once set-up it sounds pretty good and played like a dream. This model came with a bone nut and saddle and although the f*ctory was not keen to remove every scratch and polish the nut and saddle or cut the nut slots down low enough the basics were there in terms of value.

For $500 this guitar plays and sounds IMO as good as some of the $1,500 guitars from US manufacturers....

Of course the f*ctory used AMG (Asian mystery glue) which is not serviceable and usually or often the problem with repairing some of these "disposable" instruments. I say disposable because of the dowelled neck joint, unserviceable glue, etc.

As someone who works on a lot of guitars in a single week I have to tell you that the Recording King was impressive.... It reminded me of my decades of being an audiophile in which it was often the case that twice the investment in equipment may, if you are lucky, get you a 10% improvement in the perceived tone, performance, etc. Speakers are the best example of this....

So my friends for $500 one can purchase a guitar that is pretty well built sands the neck joint and glue choice, sounds pretty good, had pretty good fret work except for the uppty one, and also has upgrades such as bone nut and saddle.

You know it would not take much for the f*ctory to be introduced to HHG and not all that difficult either to swap the dowelled joint for a bolt-on or a dovetail.

If these two remaining things were done US f*ctories may need to up their games and or lower their prices at some point because these cheap, Chinese copies are beginning to provide real value in their own rite. Blueridge is a good example of this value as well.

Nothing ever stands still in my experience and the efforts that we all may have gone to in the past to up our games to remain competitive with our value proposition may need more attention as the cheap, Chinese copies (C3's....) get better and better.

It's also notable that in the case of Blueridge and now Recording King these offerings are also commanding higher prices with some Blueridge models being over $1K...

Since ultimately guitars are tools for musicians to many folks the differentiation seems in my view to be narrowing with only a very few things needed for some of these C3's to gain even more respect and ultimately more market segment....

Better watch our backs guys.... the C3's are getting better, more affordable, offering what folks seem to want in terms of looks, sizes, value, etc....

Thoughts?

I actually sold "Blueridge" guitars at one time -- I offered them with a tweaked set-up which was easy to perform since they came to me always playable. One thing I did not like was that the finish was applied with the neck already attached so they had the tell tale coating fillets at all the joints. But to Hesh's point these instruments in my opinion played and sounded as good if not better than some American made guitars costing perhaps twice as much. Blueridge now has hefty quota requirement so I no longer mess with this profit center. It was my understanding that the China factory where the BR and some other brands were manufactured was/is actually managed by a Japanese consulting firm --- of course "quality" was/is the prime concern, not cheap labor that is always thought to be at the top of the agenda.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Not just the Record Kings, and I would agree with you for the price they are perfectly adequite for anything you want to do on a guitar, but others as well. Not sure where Yamaha is made but one of the stores I do repairs for carries them and for around the same price you really can get a very nice sounding and playing guitar. Go on up to around $800-1000 and it's even better. When I look at guitars like that I wonder how I can ever even sell one of my own. Most agree mine are far better, whew at least I got that going for me , but none the less for some one wanting to play just off the street or heck even a well seasoned touring musician these guitars are perfectly fine.

Going back to circa 1990 when I started playing guitars there were no such options. It was either Martin, Gibson, big name something or other or cheap plywood junk which was truly disposable. In fact that's what got me into the whole guitar building thing in the first place, I knew I could do it better and cheaper. We've all heard that one before right? But seriously the very first guitar I built was better then that junk but perhaps equaled to a Record King or Yamaha with a solid top today. It's funny too because during that time through the 90's and Naughts I watched as catch phrases like 'Solid Top' really started to catch on. In a way I think the luthiers boom during that time helped push back on some of these companies to make affordable alternatives to higher end factory guitars as the guitar playing public in general started to learn our language a bit more and make demands in the market for it.

In my opinion the best value for the dollar in a guitar is the Chinese made Eastman. Sorry folks, but that's the way I see it.

Pat

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There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

Recently purchased an Eastman archtop to convert into a mandocello. Brand new it was $2300, and it's very nicely done, with an excellent fiberglass case.

Agreed, their good stuff is getting better - but their cheap stuff remains dismal at best.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Check out the book "Factory Man". It's all about the evolution and devolution of the furniture industry in the US. Guitars are similar to high end furniture...similar manufacturing processes, etc. The short version is that furniture changed from something you bought once, to something you bought every time you moved or had a whim. Furniture used to be all solid wood..then processes and design were changed to allow it to be made more cheaply to the point where it is now often just a cheap substrate with a picture of some wood veneered on. Most of the furniture manufacturing is now gone from the US.. The stuff that is still here is the top end of the market. I think this is the future of guitars as well. Another factor in all of this is that the Chinese gov't subsidizes industries such as this intentionally to drive foreign competition out.

It costs most of us $500 in materials just to make a guitar...and I agree, those Eastman guitars are pretty nice!

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

A good friend of mine is a product manager for a large music retailer & he spends a lot of time in China working with the factories that make some of their private label stuff.

He's always said that they can produce quality but nobody wants it, they just want the high volume cheap crap.

He also tells me that the mandated wage increases will eventually drive up the prices. When? I don't know.

Kevin Looker

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I'm not a luthier.
I'm just a guy who builds guitars in his basement.
It's better than playing golf.

Same story in Taiwan. Nobody cares about quality, only high volume and low prices. That part of the world is basically a giant wal mart.

I'm sorry but bad frets is a gamebreaker. No matter how good a guitar is, if the frets are bad, it is useless as instrument. There are even cases where fret or even bridge positioning being wrong on Chinese copies (which is REALLY hard to fix), and the only way to fix lifted frets in my opinion is a complete refret and a fingerboard level (chances are they are not). Sorry, but when one frets pops up, they will all pop up eventually and it's best to deal with it now than later. That's 200-300 dollars to fix depending on who you go to. A 500 dollar guitar SHOULD NOT have lifted frets. Mexican Fenders are around that price range and they do not have that problem that I've seen. I've done a fret dress on a 60 dollar guitar where the 4th fret was much higher than the rest of the frets, and the fix cost the owner 100 dollars. That'll teach him to not skimp on guitars.

Doweled joint neck reset? Only way to fix that is cut the neck off and turn it into a bolt on. It is also impossible to repair polyester finishes seamlessly.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

BR make good sounding guitars at a reasonable price. Tried several of them.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Yup, I have been amazed at the quality, playability, and tone of some of the $500 BR guitars I have worked on. My first archtop was an Eastman 805CE. Amazing instrument for the price which was around $1800 when I got it.

The only bad thing I have seen is some necks, especially a couple of Eastman archtops that I worked on had bowed necks that could not be straightened with the truss rod. Probably unseasoned wood. They were Maple. Eastman replaced the guitars without question.

If I was out on tour gigging every night I'd use a good Chinese guitar with a decent pickup and not think a thing of it.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Looks as if I am not the only one who has been impressed with the value proposition of some of the Chinese instruments.

I'll second the positive comments regarding Eastman, the only issue that I noticed with Eastman was a mando where the finish was pretty thick.... but beyond this the value was most certainly there.

Better watch our backs guys....

The bad fret had resulted from the owner hitting the fret on the edge of a table which knocked it loose... It could have been reseated and glued and called good (although I always wanna do a fret dress too...) but he also attempted to file the loose fret while it was still not seated making it useless. I didn't see, feel, or hear any other loose frets but glued them all anyway. No need for a refret and certainly not an option for an instrument in this price range or with this specific retired client and his budget.

Back on point.... it would not take all that much for some of these Chinese manufacturers to narrow the gap in value even further if again they used servicable neck joints, servicable glues, and I'll add were better at understanding what thick finish can do to an instrument. Seems to me that the very same things could be said of Ov*tion in it's last iteration before being sold and going off shore.

Back to servicability. Does it matter that it has an unservicable neck joint when a reset costs more than the entire instrument did new? More specifically and although this is not the kind of thing that I even like to think about but perhaps, just perhaps at this price point, $500 if the thing gives 15 years of pretty good service before it's toast it may be that it still represents real value. Not to mention the pretty colors that it will give off 15 years from now when pitched in the camp fire....

Thick finish is not the result of lack of understanding of what a thick finish does to a guitar, it is simply price. It is less work to put on a thick finish therefore less expensive. It is also less work to use dowel joints, therefore less expensive. These instruments are not 500 dollars solely because of cheap labor, but it is also because they can shave at least 30 hours of work off of each guitar, making 500 dollars profitable for the company. We spend 500 dollars on materials alone because we use high grade materials (from vendors who guarantee that they will be stable and defect free) while they use scrap materials or anything else they can get for less than 1 dollar in materials per guitar. They also buy in bulk which helps.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I think most of the $500 guitars today are FAR better than what you could buy for $500 25yrs ago when I started playing. I've tried quite a few that were pretty descent sounding and playing. Not Carnegie Hall quality but fine for home use

You're just not old enough I bought my first acoustic in '69, a brand new Martin 0-16NY, for $214.11. I still remember cause my mom convinced the music store owner to let me make payments. Took a lot of yard work. A great guitar, still got it too.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I think 1969 was 46 years ago? $250 was a big pile of money!

While I am sure there are crappy $500 imports with doweled necks etc. that is not the case with Blueridge, Lakewood, Yamaha, Epiphone, Eastman, Alvarez and BTW some Breedlove's and PRS' are made in China. Seems the point of this post is that it is evident that there are well made, good looking imports available not to trash motives or the ethics of the country of origin.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Great story Steve!!! That's dedication!!!

Thanks Ken, the point of the thread is indeed to show some respect for some of the imports mentioned including, BTW Blue Ridge, very impressive too and also very popular and growing.

My first guitar came from Sears, was a Silverstone acoustic with action so high you could slice hard boiled eggs with it..... Today's inexpensive instrument is hands above in all respects.

How do tou do that? (Assuming the fretboard edge is finished.)


Yeah, especially considering that pretty soon $500 will represent 4 days of minimum wage work!

I think the $300 Yamaha and Ibanez are better than the $600 guitars of 10 years ago.

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Pat

Hey Pat - checking for loose frets can be done lots of ways. What I typically do is first look carefully, you can often see frets and fret ends that are not all the way down. Next, anything fret wise that's suspect can be pressed with a finger to see if it moves and last I tap each fret near each end and in the middle with a metal engineer's scale. If a fret is loose the sound will be different.

Before any fret dressing it's a good idea to always check all of the frets or we may be leveling and crowning a moving target, so-to-speak.... If any fret was loose or suspect it's also a good idea to glue them all and be sure.

We do lots of electrics too, nearly half and half of our business. The Ibanez electrics have some of the best necks that we see, more relief on the bass side, less on the treble side, and decent fret work too. All on a $300 guitar too so it can be done...

The Yams have always been great values IMO and were one of the first imports that represented decent values also IMO. How many folks had a Yam 12 as their first 12 before the they decided that once they had a 12 they arn't all that...

Hesh, I wasn't asking about how to check for loose frets. I was asking how do you glue them all down if the ends are finished? Or, are you only talking about the ones that aren't finished? (Which i do with a small amount of ca in the fret end)

The Yamaha and Ibanez I am referring to are the solid top acoustics that are around $250- 300.

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Pat

Pat I'm not understanding what finished ends has to do with gluing down frets.

How we glue down frets is to wick very fresh. very thin CA with a pipette laying down a bead next to the fret. If the CA is thin enough you will see it wick in and up on the other side. Then the fret is clamped with a Jaws II tool and the matching radius caul for that specific fret. Once the clamp (Jaws II) is in place and down a spritz of accelerator working and spraying in the direction that will not contaminate the board and next fret to be glued.

Excess CA is wiped up at once after we see it wick in and around the tange. Anyway traces of the CA that remain are first scraped off and then the board is sanded.

It must be a real challenge to sand fingerboards with the frets on them...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai .. saving at least 30 hours per guitar ???? ... get real .. American made Taylors 15 years ago were being made, start to finish, on average, 11 to 18 hours per guitar (300 to 900 series instruments), from rough wood to string up - Bob said so himself in a GAL article .. that was before he had the robotic benders and buffers, plus the electrostatic finish and sprayers .... so I doubt that on average it takes the Chinese factories any more than 20 hours per on the 500 dollar variety ... maybe they do because they pay in pennies per hour over there, but still, its not taking them 100 hours per guitar ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Regarding how difficult it is to sand fret boards with frets installed - not at all...

A couple of methods are:

One: For all of time Luthiers have quad or more folded sand paper and held it at 90 degrees or so to the work and sanded back and forth. Not unlike a playing card and clothespin in the spokes of a bike. This method is is great for sanding the frets including the sides of frets and that's what it's mostly used for. In the process though the board is also sanded.

Two: Frank Ford is on record as saying that he is not a fan of using a single edged razor to scrape fret boards (with frets installed) so he made lots of wooden radiused blocks in common radi that he covers with sand paper and goes at it. I like this idea and want to try it.

Come to think of it I'll add a third method: We have a tool designed by David Collins that not only buffs the scratches out of frets but it also in the same process freshens up the board. I'd post a pic but it's not my IP and I respect that.

My question is: what would that $500 guitar cost if wages, health and safety, environmental protections, ethical materials procurement, municipal/state/federal taxes, health care benefits, etc., were on par with North American manufacturers?

I look at the finite resources consumed on these disposable guitars and wonder how much better instruments could be built from the same materials... or at least one that is serviceable.

Sorry, not a fan... customers buy them, and I service them, but I can't respect anything about the business model even if it is profitable.

I consider the Canadian brands Godin, Seagull, Art & Lutherie, Simon & Patrick, Norman to be far more noteworthy since they deliver better products at the same price point and do so within an ethical business model.




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David Radlin
http://www.facebook.com/radlin.guitars

Isn't that the point with all Chinese goods? When the Industrial Revolution was new, we did the same. It was unsustainable and caused hardship and misery. It was a hard fought lesson that you can do whatever you want on your small family farm, but industrial production can cause devastating harm to entire communities. So we reluctantly passed laws forcing industrial production to protect the communities that supported it.

Now all we have to do is send our production overseas and those laws become meaningless. I'll never understand why it's OK to insist that foreign made goods comply with some laws (eg no lead in paint) but unthinkable that they comply with health/safety/wage/etc laws. Why do we undermine our hard fought lessons for "free trade"?


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