Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi Guys,

The first scratch build I did was about 3 years ago and it was given to a pro musician who plays several hours a day. It has a 25.4" scale length, the action is exactly where he wants it and is low (though I didn't take measurements when I saw the instrument this time, I determined the action with the capo at 1st position, fingering at 14th and slipping thin card stock under at 6 and 7, with the card just lightly bumping under the string but no pushing it up, a' la' Robbie O'Brien).

I had a repair pro luthier look at it and he said the neck is set well and it doesn't need a refret. He also approved of the action.

The musician is a very fast player, and does a lot of complicated finger style stuff. He's the band's lead guitarist (Ryanhood is the band if you want to check out his playing).
Ryan felt that he wasn't playing as cleanly with the OM as he had been with his Ovation. He couldn't really articulate what the problem was, so I made a few corrections. These included stripping the lacquer from the neck and carving it to more of a "C" shape for his smaller hands. Re-finishing with Tru-Oil, which I think feels better on the neck than the gloss lacquer; and I re-dressed the frets. As I said, the setup seems just right and he liked that. He uses Medium Elixar strings (on both the Ovation and my OM). He came to pick it up today, and although he loves the sound of it, said he still thinks it feels harder to play. But this time when we talked about it, I got a better sense for what he's experiencing because I have a guitar (my first one, made at a 2 week building class with a pro) which I never play because I have that same feeling…it feels like the strings are harder to fret than they should be.

He's willing to try light strings, but I have a feeling that won't solve the problem. All the variables I can think of that affect string tension (scale length, string gauge, action) are seemingly fine on this guitar, yet the strings take too much effort. I would love to hear any opinions on this….I don't know what if anything more to do.
And even if there's no way to change it on this guitar…I don't want to build this into another in the future. The other guitarist for Ryanhood also plays one of mine…a Slope shoulder Dread,….and he has no trouble with it. But…he's not playing finger style, it's scale length is 24.5", and he is a strong guy with big hands.

Thanks for slogging through this post!

I'll be following this with interest, I've noticed this on several guitars. Everything seems perfect, but the strings seem harder to fret than they should.
I've also seen the opposite, I have an old Gibson J-50 that the strings seem easier to fret than they should. It's got 10s on it, but it frets as easily as my electrics with .08s.

_________________
A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

I am sure the repair and set up experts will have much to say. When I get this complaint the first and many times the last things I focus on are relief (too much is a killer) and the nut slot depth -- I know there are many "formula" set up methods but simply stated the strings can be set much lower to the frets at the nut end than some of the formulas indicate.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

How's the action at the nut? What's the scale length of the ovation?

The Ovation would have a slightly shorter scale length (25 1/4 ") , so slightly less tension. Switching to light strings may help.
The height of the strings off the first fret can also have a big effect on the feel of the action. Try to set them as close to the fret as practicable.

I don't know the specs on the Ovation, but he said it's not just that it's harder than the Ovation…it's just harder period.

The action at the nut is a bare pencil width from bottom of strings to first fret. He's a hard player, and I'm worried about buzz if it's any lower than that, but I suppose I could just make a second nut with even lower string height and see if it improves.

Since both you and Michael chimed in with this possibility, I think I should try to make a new nut.
Could this be tested first by capoing at the first position and playing? I suppose that shortens the effective scale length and therefore may make it seem easier to play even if it isn't.

I've heard this referred to as 'compliance'.

Not sure the science behind it, but even with identical setups, some guitars are just easier to play. I have an old OM of mine with .12's that you can get 2 step bends just like a strat with .10's...

Yes, I should have mentioned that --

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

String compliance can make a big difference on how the "tension" feels in my opinion.
I've made several Teles with different bridges and different angles from the nut to the pegs.
I made one using a top load bridge and a shallow nut to peg angle. This one is easy as pie to fret.
I made one with a string through the body bridge and the nut to peg angle was very sharp.
The strings on this one feel much tighter, but the attack and clarity is much improved and I prefer it.
I'm not sure how to implement a greater string compliance on an acoustic, but on my electric builds it is a definite factor on how easy it is to fret.
Dan

_________________
wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

Beth, I'm afraid that I can't do a setup on a guitar without accurate measurements and I always take them before and after I do the work (I have a spread sheet that I give to the owner showing the "as found" and "as adjusted" values - I know that numbers aren't everything but I sure couldn't do it with "thin card stock" (by the way, a business card is about 0.010) or a "bare pencil width".

I would suggest that you measure all three of his guitars - scale length and gauge of strings, relief, action at the first fret (ie nut slots) and action at the 12th. I'll add that I always make sure the guitar is well humidified and that the frets are perfect before starting any setup work. Compare all of those things (post them here if you want) and try to figure out what is different about this guitar.

btw - from the string tension chart at the UMGF FAQ (I'm lazy, you can do the calcs if you want) it looks like going from 25.5 scale to 24.5 reduces the tension by about 7 percent, going from mediums (13) to lights reduces it about 13 percent. If he is playing mediums down tuning one semi tone will give almost exactly the same tension as lights at concert - a quick way to see if he likes the reduced tension (but, you say he is a fast fingerstyle player - most finger style guitars do seem to prefer lights.

Thanks for that. I did all of the measurements at the time of setup, but didn't write them down this time (which was really dumb).
As it turns out the guys already tune down a half step. I think he's willing to try the light strings.

Sometimes nut action can affect things a lot more than some realize. I like to get the nut action just low enough to not buzz open, but allowing you to play a F chord effortlessly. It's a very fine line because it takes less than one thou between a perfect nut action vs. sitar sound when played open. When they are where they should be, and the neck as straight as it will go (you really don't want a lot of neck relief, it should be nearly dead straight but not dead straight) the guitar will play like butter even with heavy strings.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Beth, just a suggestion before you pull the nut. You say a bare pencil, I'm not sure how much that is but I aim for a bare hair. When fretted at the second fret the distance from the top of the first fret to the bottom of the string should be barely a space. Some people use feeler gauges and get it down to a measurement, but I just get it as close as I can without touching. It has a major affect on left hand fatigue and playability. Check it and cut the slots down a smidgen at a time. Then have him try it. I have never had it cause a buzz but ymmv.

As others have said I bet the nut slots are too high. The relief curve also might not be ideal. Most folks measure relief at only one spot in the middle of the fretboard which doesn't tell the whole story. If there's too much curvature at the nut end it can make a guitar that has the right numbers feel harder to play.

But I'd definitely address the nut slots first. If you don't know how far is too far, then don't be afraid to go to far with them... you can always shim the nut with a piece of paper or just make a new one if you make the slots too deep.

Time for some pics...

No pics for now, because I don't have the guitar in hand. Ryan had it at rehearsal yesterday and another band's guitarist tried it and loves it. Ryan is going to let that guy and his wife (the band is Run Boy Run and they're both in it) use the OM for their upcoming tour. Ryan admits he's really, picky...maybe some of this is due to player preference (though i want to make guitars that anyone would find easy to play). If Matt keeps it, I'll offer to deepen the nut slots and suggest light strings.
I appreciate all the comments and suggestions, and will let you know if I find the thing that works.

I'm not so sure the problem comes from the nut. High strings at the nut mostly show up while in the first position. But, the nut has to be right before you can get a good setup. After the nut is right I do neck relief then action height. I don't know what else can be done.

I use to think i had my nut cut pretty well, then I decided to buy one of these from StewMac. I found I wasn't doing as well as I thought. It is a great tool.

http://www.stewmac.com/product/images/1 ... _Gauge.jpg

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

How tall are your frets? I find that if the fret height is too tall or too short makes playability harder. The sweet spot for me is about .035"-.040" fret height.

Also, check your relief. Too much relief will require more pressure to push the strings down in the middle of the neck, and will also make the intonation sharp. I find the best playability with the least amount of relief I can get away with (which depends on how well I leveled the frets and therefore how low I can get the strings without buzzing). I like my relief around .005"-.008".

So my plan of action if I was in your situation is to set the relief correctly with a truss rod adjustment, get the nut slots set right (with the second fret technique Glen H mentioned above), lower the action at the 12th if possible, and if that doesn't fix it, then consider re-leveling the frets if you have enough material left, or do a re-fret if not.

Gil - I was also going to mention the fret height. If the frets were brought down too low during leverling, it could possibly make playability a little harder...

_________________
Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

I'm glad I'm not the only one that believes that. Compliance is mostly related to string afterlength (length between nut and tuner plus any behind the saddle) and break angle. I say mostly related because it doesn't completely explain the differences I've observed. I'll also agree that the nut slots are the place to start, and relief is a close second.

_________________
A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

Nice to see you back, Beth!

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Hi Beth:

Rule number one of being a Luthier is never take anyone seriously who loves an Ov*tion..... Keith Partridge aside I'm only partially kidding here - Ov*tions are by no means worthy of being anyone's standard from which to judge all others....

With that out of the way there are legitimate reasons why your OM will have more tension such as the increased scale length. Scale length is not something that can be changed in a set-up, it is what it is.

String choices can make a difference too. He likes Elixirs and at the risk of being flamed we don't.... As you know when ever something facinates us here we are well known to go all in and study the issue perhaps to a fault.... We've looked at Elixirs under microscopes and have found issues with inconsistant wraps that HAVE caused audible issues for some players.

DR strings in my experience too and also feel much stiffer to me than say D-Addarios.

Moving on to set-up. No offense to Robbie, ever and I believe he was simply giving folks an easy way with no special tools required to check things out.

In my world things are measured in 64ths" or .001" and this level of accuracy we find to be key to not only describing issues but to making corrections in a measurable way too.

BTW in the trade action is generally measured at the 12th and in 64th of an inch as well with the high e stated first, low e next.

Now that the definition of terms at least for my rants are out of the way here are some thoughts.

First I am serious about a player who measures the playability of an instrument against an Ov*tion, any Ov*tion and would cause me to have red flags all over the place at once.... Remember too that Ov*tions were hybrids in the sense that they were early in the market segment of acoustic electric back in the day when it was believed, wrongly I will add.... that am amplified acoustic needed to have action like an electric.... Wrong... These days pup choices are far better and acoustics don't have to lose their soul to be like an electric to both play great and sound great amplified.

Some questions:

1) What is the action at the 12th, high e, low e, measured in 64th"?

2) What strings, brand are on it now?

3) Are the string mediums or lights. While we are at it what's on that beloved Ov*tion both brand and 12's or 13's?

4) Those who suspect the nut I'm right there with ya and so far only Tai Fu has described how we would cut a nut properly. Fretting and holding between the second and third tap the string on top of the first and see how much space you have. Do the same on the stinkin Ov*tion to get a baseline of what he likes.

The space under the high e when doing the above described method should be barely perceivable, I often have to listen for the "ping" of contact the space when properly cut is so very minimal. This distance could be less than .001" and should be around .001 or so for the high e.

With each string increasing in width so too should the space under the string at the first fret. There is no hard rule here but you don't want the string in direct contact with the first fret crown as Tai Fu also said or it will buzz open. One method..... that you could use is making the space under each string 1/2 the diameter of that string when fretting between the second and third and tapping the string over the first. With this method some strings will be a bit high even still.

Once the nut slots are cut properly lots of issues go away such as any need for nut compensation provided that the scale length is error free at the nut face. That Buzz Feitin guy is going to hate me but hey I'm not on board with nut compensation... and instead believe in setting up an instrument properly....

For me nut slots are step one of set-up and the slots are cut and checked after setting the relief.

Any OM should be capable of action of 4 and 5 (64th's inch high e, low e measured at the 12th) with 12's on it. As we move to mediums it's a good idea to increase the action to 5 and 6. For a dr*ad 4-6 with 12's and 5-7 with 13's.

I'd be interested to see how this player does with properly cut nut slots, quality D-Addario strings (not coated) and proper action as per above. The longer scale length is what it is, get used to it and Ov*tions are by no means any standard to judge any other acoustic instrument by.

Please don't get me wrong and I know that your client is a friend too but the customer is NOT always right and it's often the case that we are the experts and need to assume that role in these interactions. I'm sure that the customer believes what he feels and sees but perhaps it's time to let him know that your OM is by no means anything like his Ov*tion and should never be judged against it either.

Most of the time players complaining about "stiff" feeling strings can be traced to the nut slots being too high. It may be too that if he is using mediums and has them on your OM that you set it up with "Bluegrass" strings that are available from many different manufacturers and have 12's on the high e and 56 on the low e, a combination of lights and mediums. Remember too that his Ov*ation will require more engery to drive any string because it's such a lousy instrment.... Your Om should be much more efficient and he may get the same volume from your OM with lights that he gets from the Ov*tion with mediums.

You might want to also suggest that guitars are as different as people and that comparing one to another is an exercise in wishful thinking and not very realistic not to mention insulting at times too....

Hope something here helps and if I can help let me know?

Yep, for sure. The second and third fret procedure is a pain, but it must be done. A "pencil width" is much too much.

(notice that I haven't made any jokes about either Ovations or Keith Partridge )

I wasn't joking my Greg my friend.... In the trade, the repair trade when Luthiers see an Ov*tion coming in that huge, brown case they often lock the doors, turn out the lights, and stay away from the windows...... What ever it takes to not get any on us....

If someone ever told me that they liked their Ov*tion more than their Heshtone I would put the Heshtone in the case, ask to borrow the Ov*tion and then hit em with it..... Just kidding of course, well kind of....