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Based on what I've read in other discussions, the time it takes for the nitro to finish off gassing is much shorter than the time required for the process referred to as opening up. Quote from another thread: all solvent based coatings have lost 95% of their solvent within a few days and 99% + within 30 days. If you listen to advocates of torrefied wood, opening up takes many decades and using torrefied wood gets you there now.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I won't pretend to remember the numbers the Taylor rep gave but I'm sure he talked a longer time period than 30 days. That's why I remember it. It was one of those moments where someone changes tone and you get the impression they are going 'off script' and being pretty frank. I remember him talking about 'thinning' taking place during this time.

My wondering if 'opening up' was related is probably a red herring here. Just a speculation on my part. I really only meant to reinforce the notion that Taylor is pretty avidly looking at the finishing process and probably isn't primarily driven by cost. The rep was pretty detailed into what they felt made a good finish and what they are trying to accomplish. As stated earlier, they already have a process in place so changing it probably isn't a cost savings.

Funny, I seem to remember some folks telling me a month or so, in no uncertain terms, that nitro finishes outgassing by 99% in days and it had nothing to do with breaking in...

Thanks for that Herm, I would have loved to hear that talk too. Can't say that that I would agree with the guy either because "opening up" in my experience refers to something entirely different from when the finish stops gassing off.

Nitro gasses off for decades..... yep. Frequently we see guitars that are over 50 - 60 years old and although the finish likely has already gassed off except for perhaps a fraction of a percent things like the nitro cellulose pick guards continue to pass off as they deteriorate to the point that they are corroding the frets, pup covers, etc. and it's visible too.

But the finish itself in terms of any impact on tone likely gasses off enough in 30 days or so as the others have said. This is why it's important after spraying to keep the work piece in a place with stable RH AND a good supply of air flow that hopefully vents outside and not into your homes.

"Opening up" refers to the phenomena of the various pieces of the instrument settling in, reaching a balance of sorts where stresses external and internal get relieved to some degree and the structure, the box begins to act as a system and not a bunch of banana crate pieces glued together.

On the guitars that I kept and play my observations although entirely subjective are that Adi seems to take longer to open up than say sitka, etc. What you will typically experience as an instrument opens up is a more lush tone, perhaps a bit more volume, certainly more profound bass, etc. One of the reasons why vintage instruments can sound pretty good is that they are "vintage" and had lots of time for internal (and external) stresses to lesson and the things function more as that system that I speak of and less as the sum of the individual parts.

It's very noticeable at least to me and I've noticed on my old girls here anywhere from perhaps a 10% improvement in the "fullness" of the tone to perhaps 20%. With this much tonal improvement available in time no wonder that torrified wood is currently a hot subject because an open guitar does sound superior to what it sounded like in say the first five years of life.

Back to the Taylor rep some of us believe that since poly is so very tough it's also likely one of the more restrictive finishes out here. That's my impression but don't get me wrong knowing this in advance can influence how they built to counter it. It's also necessary for guitars for the gigging group to have tough finishes in many cases.

Finishing has always been a problem for us meaning small shop builders. Nothing works great without it's own set of issues and we typically are not tooled-up in home shops to deal with the hazards of some of these finishes.

Welcome to the OLF Hermit!

Me too. What else is on my mind is that it's been believed for some time now that nitro finishes will deteriorate perhaps completely.... out around 100 years down the road. We are approaching the invention of nitro becoming 100 years old now so we are going to be the first groups of Luthiers ever to see this happen.... if it happens....

Rick Turner has been talking about this where he walks the earth on forums and it's an interesting subject. It also implies that the gassing off to the ultimate point of destruction never ends either.

My hope is that these things that we love, guitars, mandos, etc. don't become that cheap, imported lumber liquidators Chinese flooring out gassing in our homes....

Thanks for that very much J. It sounds like drop filling with the exact same finish has worked best for you. That's what I wanted to know.

Something that we do and use when sanding repairs after scraping with a single edged razor blade with the corners safed is small blocks of super hard rubber - think horse stall mats. The blocks can conform to gentle curves a bit but stay very flat too when you need them to such as when sanding two substances where one is softer than the other. We use the blocks with wet/dry paper and the higher grits and it works well to blend in things and not sand though where we don't want to. LMI sells hard felt about 1/2" think that I have used too but I like the hard rubber blocks a bit better and they don't soak up the water either.

J buddy please do not get me wrong here at all. You guys deserve thanks from we cowards.... who are too risk adverse to try new things and advance the craft. What you are doing is important and there is immense promise as well specifically in this case because the value that your experience provides the rest of us is the hope that one day, perhaps even right now, there will be finish alternatives that are safe to use in the home. This would be a boon to hobby builders because the finishing problem has stood in our way for all of time now...

So my hats off to ya J and your efforts, sharing, experience is greatly appreciated!!!

The EM 2000 has an amber tint. If you doubt the durability of EM 2000 just buy a can and do some simple tests and I am sure you will change your mind. I use it over a light and smooth coat of shellac to add some hardness. I have instruments some as old as 16 years in 5 countries all wearing some form of waterborne. So far no complaints.

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http://www.cushmanguitars.com/.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

Well that's the thing, Matt, some of us are unwilling to experiment on the client's dime.... Glad that it works for you though.

Experiment on scrap wood.

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http://www.cushmanguitars.com/.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

Sure now how do we accelerate 20 years forward to see how it does...

I need positive history before I select products, finishes, etc. That's my Catch 22 when it comes to water born finishes and it's also why I appreciate you guys who do use it and then report back. Thanks for your thoughts, Matt.

One of my favorite movies, Catcha 22. General Dreedle..."I can't shoot him? Whadya mean I can't shoot him?"...

Seems EM6000 has yielded some good results --- I looked at the web sight and I noticed what seems to be a contradiction (at least to me) "100% burn-in technology" but in the description this appears
"Allow each coat to dry for a minimum of 25-30 minutes before recoating. Sanding between each coat is not necessary unless contamination has effected the film formation, or if the last coat has dried for more then 24 hours." Having to rough up the surface is an indication that there is a mechanical bond at this stage. Perhaps its just my understanding but to me 100% burn-in means consecutive layers meld into the previous coats preventing stratified layers.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Mine too along with Cuckoo's Nest. When I was still in corporate America I often had to speak to groups and when taking the podium would comment that the group reminded me of the charter boat scene in Cuckoo's Nest where all the residents of the mental hospital where sitting on the boat deck with life preservers on waiting for someone who knew what they were doing to take charge.... Fortunately I never knew what I was doing but found myself very comfortable with folks with issues.

I grew up on the grounds, not "in" the grounds..... there is a difference.... of the large Michigan State mental hospitals. My dad was a shrink who worked there and we lived on the grounds. My first friends and playmates were developmentally disabled folks and we had a great time throwing rocks at the staff.... Anyway the developmental years in the mental hospitals made me very well suited for corporate America.

Brazil is still my all time favorite...

Boy ain't that the truth

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

Sometimes just best to ask - so I wrote John & Gerald and got the following response from John:

"Mike;
I am using and have been using for the last five years Enduro-var oil emulsion water base varnish from General Finishes. I get it at my local Woodcrafters. Looks like nitro but has more elasticity and will never degrade of check, sands and buffs easily, cures to sand-able in 30 minutes, recoat about the same. They also make a great flat version of the finish for necks.

It is an entire finishing process and is simple in essence but requires practice to get right. I don't have time to lay it all out for you, but the trick about it is to use System Three Silvertip epoxy as the sealer/ filler under this finish. I do two or three coats of the epoxy (depending on the pore size) and sand it back to flat before applying 6 coats of the Enduro with a small touch up gun. Wait one additional day after the last coat and fine sand with 1500/2000/4000 and buff to a high nitro gloss. The whole finish process is about 5 days to buff out.
John "

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guitarsbygiltzow.com

Anybody else spraying shellac?
That's my new finish.
Flakes with a good d.a. solvent.
Looks really nice,
and not so nasty to work with!
Alan

I don't get why so few people do French Polish shellac. No noxious toxic chemicals. No noisy compressor. No dedicated spray booth. You can FP a guitar while watching TV.
It also looks great! I understand if you are trying to get 30 a month out the door that you would need a UV cured poly. But that is not the case for 99% of members of the forum.
I tried spraying KTM-9, EM6000, and nitro. After another three day debacle of orange peel and drips I decided to FP. I honestly can't understand why I thought I HAD to spray a finish just because Taylor does. I have gone from hating the finishing stage to looking forward to it. Oh, and my FP'ed guitars have by far the best finishes I've done so far.


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I remember at the 2004 GAL when John and Mike Doolin were having an orgasm over KTM-9 and John exhibited similar excitement a couple of years earlier at an LMI gathering and in the old ring bound LMI catalog. I certainly got on the bandwagon then and although they looked great initially there was trouble in Dodge down the line and I had to refinish several. Necks were the big problem with major breakdown and bodies to a lesser degree although they lost their luster and became dull. Same with USL and EM6000. A couple of years later I started outsourcing for Nitro and Catalyzed Urethane and never looked back.

Anyone else had experience with the General Finishes product? I am following the Royal Lac thread. I'd be fine with going back to doing finishes if a non toxic product proved commercially viable. French Polish is unfortunately probably not appropriate for what I am building right now but I have never really done it and should give it a try,

I'll be interested to see how instruments French polished with Royal-Lac hold up in general use in the real world.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Just curious, why is it so hard to find Behlans in a gallon format?

Would you rather have 3 days inventory in the paint shop, or 3 weeks inventory?

I wonder if that had a place in determining which finish to use at various factories?

Just a noob kwestcion.

I've never had a problem. I've got a 5 gallon pail of Behlens instrument lacquer that I bought just before I had to quit. Stop buying it from Stew-Mac. Try Google or Duck Duck Go...

Thanks Haans.

FPed shellac is a great solution and in a couple of hours I'll be looking at one that was built in the late 1870's.

Acoustically FP is in my experience superior to all others too in terms of the instrument sounding much as it did in the white. All other finishes that I have experience with seem far more restrictive even to the point that the finish can be heard.....

My personal favorite guitar is a FPed L-OO with a very thin FP and minimally filled pores. It's my test mule and never destined to leave home but I ended up preferring to play this one because of the tone - very unadulterated Adi/Euro and a nice combo too.

The down side of FP is the time and effort which can be a lot of time and effort. It's also the least protective finish of our choices with the least ding resistance because of how very thin the finish can be. But..... for an adult owned instrument for a non-gigging musician FP is a great choice and likely the least toxic of all especially if you go the 190 proof grain alcohol route and nix the denatured alcohol that contains lots of nasty additives.

If I was a hobbyist building primarily for the fun of it and not having any intention to sell, ever I would knowing what I know now be FPing my creations.

PS: FP shellac looks killer with age too. It ambers very well which I like and is super easy to repair too simply by padding on more to the afflicted areas.

Isn't Royal Lac a USA version of this stuff?

http://www.ubeaut.com.au/hardshell.htm


Do the polymers/plasticizers (whatever) prevent long term ability for 100% chemical burn-in (alcohol melts the surface and the new layer blends into the previous coats) -- for me one of the neatest things about shellac top coating is the ultra simple repair process.

Terrence I think you hit the nail.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/