Official Luthiers Forum!

I was talking with a close friend of mine sharing my passion for all things guitars, and especially the building of guitars. He asked me a simple question that I realized I didn't really know the answer to:

"Who buys custom luthier guitars?"

I have my guesses, but I realized no real data. This question was especially poignant when I realized that I didn't even know where a person would go in my city to buy a custom made guitar. A little back ground:

I live in San Diego, California. We are a city of about 3.5 Million people. We are also the home of some of the most expensive real estate in the United States, so there is no lack of money here. The Romeros (a well know family of classical guitar musicians) went to my high school and mostly still live around here, so we have some reason to be interested in guitars. We are a little sister to LA in terms of the music industry, but we are certainly without a serious music industry. And yet, I cannot think of one music store that would carry high end luthier instruments. We used to have a store called Buffalo Brothers, but it went out of business.

So I thought I would start a little survey/discussion. For those of you who sell instruments, who are buying them? Are they filthy rich, or are they average joe's making a significant investment in a passion? Are they Baby Boomers? Gen X? Millenials? Men? Women? Are they musicians? Academics? Professionals? Business owners? Trust fund babies? Do people buy them to mark special occasions (anniversary gifts, graduation)? How did they find you (or you find them)? Local music store? Website? Tradeshow?

As for my clients through the years, they've been rich folks and poor folks. Players who gigged constantly, some teachers, many just regular working joes who scrimped and saved, and some were amateurs with money and desire for a one-off personally created for them. The one thing in common for all was an appreciation for an instrument built on a higher level, and admiration for the skills of the person responsible for creating them.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I call them "dentists" as a generic term. 40-50 year old guys who've done well, the kids are out of the house, and they can now treat themselves to the things they always lusted after when they were young and poor.

Also responsible for the bump in Harley sales, I'd guess.

Steve

Same. I haven't sold many but most of the ones I have sold have gone to 50+ age group, retired who are either just getting back into playing or have had a guitar in their head for a while and want to see what they have conceptualized become a reality.

_________________
Blue Ring Acoustics
blueringacoustics.ca

My experience is not a lot of regular gigging musicians. (Not counting the folks that play an occasional open mic.) More middle aged living room players that love guitars and with some disposable income. Some are very good players. Thank God for that demographic.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

When did Buffalo Brothers go out of business? Bummer.

_________________
sweat the small stuff.

My basic customer is middle aged kids gone and knows what he wants. Most guitars that I sell are Dreds based off old martin patterns and designs. On #205. I have about a 6 month back log and it is getting longer.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I guess I would say that I sold mandolins and guitars to two groups, the lawyers, Drs, white collar types and the working musician that was tired of mediocre factory instruments.
One of the best mandolin sales I had was a very HOT picker from AZ that was sent to IBMA by his wife with a brand new credit card "check" and told to buy any mandolin he liked. He bought a German spruce/red maple F5 from me and still plays it every day. He was a working musician.

More than half of my clients were over 40, male, gigging musicians (which has it's own set of issues such as being broke all of the time....) and folks who simply wanted something different from the usual suspects. The idea of a guitar being built by someone that they knew was a novelty to them and perhaps even a bit of a status symbol as well.

If you want to talk about HOW to sell them that's a very long subject and my views are going to conflict with nearly everyone here because I went a different path. My views are also not going to be liked by show promoters and the folks who prey.... er I mean.... service small builders.... Seriously though shows can be viable opportunities if... and I say if.... the resulting sales more than cover the entire stack of show costs including the opportunity costs of the lost production time when going to the show.

It always amazed me though that folks in trying very hard with genuine, sincere effort to market their wares choose a venue with dozens or more competitors..... Seems to me that exclusivity in one's approach AND prospective market would be the way to go....

Here's what I did:

1) No shows
2) No advertising
3) No effort what so ever to sell anything
4) NO COMMISSIONS...... take it or leave it and if leaving it let the door hit you in the arse on the way out....

Instead I learned repair, hung out a shingle, hung my stuff in my shop and invariably someone wanted to try it, bring back the wife to try it, and they bought it. Simple, easy, no additional costs incurred in marketing, and folks knew in advance exactly what they were getting because it already existed and was in their laps.

Related is what you have to sell for to actually cover your TRUE costs and what you have to sell for to cover your "opportunity" costs.

Very few guitar builders make it with making it being defined as being able to financially support yourself, yours, and your pursuit of Lutherie by selling instruments. A top tier of builders has existed for a long time and although new folks occasionally make this tier IME the tier rarely changes....

It is good for supplemental income, fun, creative outlet, and if you are like me and absolutely love meeting folks and sitting down and strumming with them. My playing as improved a great deal because of the sales that I made and many of these folks still are strumming with me from time to time.

If you've noticed folks come and go from Lutherie forums. There is a core of diehards who have been here a long time but I can't even begin to count the many, many folks who came our way, had great interest in Lutherie, outfitted a shop with tools and jigs and then you see them advertising in the classified to sell their stash.

Most new builders who go commercial fail for a lack of sales.... And if the economy tanks (again...) God help ya because disposable income is what most folks rely on for musical instrument purchases. When push comes to shove and it's the mortgage or a new guitar the mortgage wins....

Talked with a collector yesterday who has over 300 very valuable instruments. He does not want any of our small Luthier built instruments and unless he can find them in a Guide to Valuable Guitars of sorts he's not interested.... It's one of the best private collections that I've ever seen (in pics so far) and we do some work for him. We were invited to visit him and the collection and since he lives near Dan E. I want to go and see it.

Anyway told ya you wouldn't like my perspective.... I just would very strongly advise folks do some cost accounting and determine your true costs. It's highly likely that your business model is not sustainable with true costs, opportunity costs, etc, factored in.

Long ago when I was first starting to learn the repair side I did a true accounting of my true costs and learned that I was making sub $1 an hour for all the time that I put into my stuff less costs of materials, outsourced finish (I wanted the best available) and I usually provided expensive cases as well.

It's a very tough slog to make it as a small builder.....

I like to go to the shows purely to talk guitars and see old friends. If I did it for a ROI I would lose every time. That said, its very hard if not impossible to quantify the future effect is has being at the shows. I suspect its positive, but does it pay for it self? Not sure.
Its a mini vacation.

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Seems the trend today are buyers that want a true vintage instrument -- like AKA pre-war whatever. Those can cost $15000 or more. I think John Hall has a good formula. Even Martin at the factory level makes these offerings with the promises of the mystical sound and now even the look. $3000 for a modern HD28 or $5000 for a vintage replica, that's tuff completion --- especially when the small shop is trying to duplicate those very products --- one thing for sure customers spending that kind of $$ are not stupid.

I know John Greven and Preston Thompson stick to the vintage philosophy and do very well, note in both cases the reputation is well established --- their customers want a Greven or Thompson, and assume those products are superior to what the factories are making today. Its a bit of a stretch that many are going to shell out $5K+ for a Joe Guitar -- so what seems to happen is that Joe may be content to sell at $1500-$2000 (see Hesh above for cost and profit break down)

On the other hand Dana B had a recent article in AG mag and made the interesting comment that his commission customers were after exotic woods and bling with little discussion of sound properties. Again his reputation precedes him.

So to the question -- after friends and relatives, buyers are anyone that want a premium guitar. The key in my view is establishing that one is a true maker/seller of "premium guitars" --- that is not an easy journey.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I should have mentioned what I've said lots of time before and that shows are really a good time to get with your buddies and have some fun. I did Healsburg in 2007 and hung out with you Lance, Paul Woolson, Howard Klepper and Rick (you ain't crap until you learn repair.... ) Turner. It was a great time.

I'll add that back then I was changing my mind and considering selling my stuff mostly because I was didn't have any more room for any more guitars.... I wanted to see for myself what the bench mark was, where the bar was, etc. and still did not know if my stuff stacked up.

It was interesting to get some data in this respect as well. Things like around 50% of pro Luthiers outsourcing finishing drove some points home for me AND said loud and clear to me that sometimes what's believed on forums is far from the truth - no disrespect intended to any forum. But outsourced finishing was an excellent example when half of the top tier Luthiers known world wide outsource finishing that guy on a forum sticking out his chest proclaiming Lutherie purity... because he sprays his stuff in his garage was clueless.... to what the goal should have been - world class results!

Dave's going to Woodstock this years but we have no illusions that it's anything that will generate any business and besides we won't accept shipped in work for two primary reasons. First you learn along the way that the greatest occupational hazard that Luthiers often inflict on ourselves if the desire and penchant to believe that you have to be everything to every one.... Second we don't need to accept shipped in work and there are a plethora of good reasons why we are fortunate to be in this position. Most of all though you can't see what you are agreeing to until you own it and it's in your face and space and next there are a lot of other associated costs with being in the shipping and deceiving business and we don't want to go there.... Things such as damage in shipment (very, very common....).

Here's some insight to our world for you folks. Client calls from Arizona says you guys have an excellent reputation and I want to send you something to do for me. We ask if he's tried so and so locally and he starts to rail on a well known, very talented professional Luthier..... RED FLAG, run away fast...... You can't please everyone and learning to spot the troublesome sorts while they are still out of range is a good idea....

Anyway shows can be a very good time, an educational opportunity, a chance to see where the bar is (not the liquid one but that matters too... ), and a chance to get out of the bump and grind of endlessly toiling by candlelight with sharp chisel in hand too....

Regarding the long term value of shows and the contacts made that may lead to future commission sales that was not my business model, commission sales so there was nothing at shows for me beyond the good time. Some Luthiers will bring interesting stuff to sell retail at the show and that can be a winning model too. Most that I talk to though go home in the red but again making money is not the only reason to attend shows but exhibiting may be a different matter.

If you have a big name shows are likely a necessary evil.... to retain and maintain that big name. Meet and greet can be powerful for future sales for some.

Completely agree Ken, well said. There was a time when there were not so very many of us and say an Olsen guitar was a very coveted thing bolstered in it's demand by scarcity.... Olsen guitars are still very coveted but the rarity and scarcity thing may have been lessoned by Joe's guitar shop.... Olsen also now has to deal with competing with himself at times when used Olsens are available as well.

I suspect being a Luthier is not unlike being a lawn in that in time things mature and change, less water, more shade, etc. The guys who have done this for decades such as Hans can weigh in on the changes I suspect.

I'll also add that a LOT has changed in the last ten years. Builders of vintage Martin like instruments now have competition as mentioned above from Martin themselves. They also have competition from the standard of the industry (Martin) with one of the most liberal and client centric warranties in the business... Many of us find guitar building later in life and our warranties though well intended may only really be valid for a decade or so when are are active with Lutherie.

I've personally been a part of helping a client get a Martin neck reset covered under warranty over 40 years later.... Martin came though with no unnatural acts - they are a class company and as such how do you compete with that.....

My customers are about 50% working musicians and 50% older customers who can now afford to have a guitar built for them. Some of them just beginning to play guitar and some who started very young and now have the finances to indulge their passion. I do not rely on this business for total family financial support and am very much in awe of you builders that do. But it is nice to get a reasonable price for your guitars and to have that price increase over the years. After all, right or wrong, a lot of people rate you on the amount of money you get for your instruments. What is more important to me is to see my guitars being used. That's the real pay off for me.

_________________
guitarsbygiltzow.com

Has anyone noticed that the folks that go totally over the top about a new acquisition blathering on all the forums and social media about how great it is are frequently the ones that are trying to sell it a couple of years later?

For a lot of customers in the luthier built world the hunt and process seem to trump a long term relationship.

I don't say this judgmentally, more as an observation. If anything this phenomenon is good for our little subculture..

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Reading through the responses, my guesses seem to be justified. The buyers are mostly "Baby Boomers" (don't know if our Canadian friends have anything comparable) buying the guitar equivalent of a Harley, a new Bass Cat fishing boat, or a reproduction balsa surfboard.
How to make a living is a totally different discussion. As an attorney with 20 years of experience with business law, strategy and planning I don't see a viable business plan for young luthiers trying to enter the market. The fact that some seem to have entered successfully astounds me.
I say this with deep sorrow. I wish quality instruments were available to working musicians and a younger generation of working people. I also wish I could tell the young folks at the lutherie program at my community college that their dedication and artistry had a chance of giving them the middle class life of their parents.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hello, Luthiers--Well, I think I have some insight into this question. I am buying luthier-built guitars; I'm probably pretty typical: white, highly educated, retired, kids leaving home, understanding wife (not to be discounted), a passion for acoustic guitars that keeps me sane and grounded and out of mischief. I go to a week-long guitar seminar every summer. I would say the vast majority of the 30 or so attendees fit my description. Still, of those 30 I would say only 10 or so have purchased luthier-built instruments. There's a lot of high quality instruments, mind you, Collings and Martin, Santa Cruz and Goodall. But many of the attendees I've talked to still see a luthier-built guitar as something of a risk. I don't share that opinion. I've bought a lot of said guitars, and the only times I ever felt disappointed were my own fault, as in "you get what you pay for." The question of cost is not really the determining factor, except if I were trying to make guitars for a living, I'd try to keep my prices somewhat in line with those of higher level guitars like Collings and Martin. Hope this helps a little. Best, Jack

Jack, you wouldn't need another guitar per chance, would ya.
Ken

LOL!!!

Welcome to the OLF Jack - great to have another old dude here....

rlrhett said: "I don't see a viable business plan for young luthiers trying to enter the market."

I agree for builders only..... the operative here is "builders only..." The world is full of broken or poorly made instruments though.

There is a market though for builders who don't need to depend on building income and certainty.... Much like what you see here on the OLF of the folks who have sold at least a couple dozen instruments.

The average age of our repair clients is I suspect 40 - 50 and this in a University town with over 50,000 students.

Am I concerned? You bet! I'm always asking the neighbor kid if guitars are still cool. He says they teach it in his school... go figure.... and I was his sound man when he played for the opening game of little league with his excellent version of the Hendrix National Anthem.

Over all guitar sales are at record levels world wide but not growing much these days since the great recession. What has changed by the largest percentage is the cost of guitars, they are going up and up and up! So you guys who sell for less you might want to take advantage of the trend and raise prices.

But let's also have some faith that some builders can be exceptional and break though the pack with the value and artistry that they provide. I'll add that if the concept of a "you don't see one like this every day" guitar was not in demand R. Taylor, Martin Custom Shop, Collings, and a host of others would not be currently realizing significant economic gain though the further proliferation of semi-custom to full out custom instruments.

Small builders have influenced the usual suspects to the degree that they are now encroaching on our business model only with better warranties and brick and mortar business that may actually be around when neck reset time comes.

One last thing. Lance and Brock used to talk about the "romance" of commissioning an instrument. I actually did this too contracting a custom instrument before becoming a builder myself and I liked the idea of mine being a one and only. There is romance in them there hills of Lutherie and trying to quantify it, understand it, and account for it will drive you nuts. Look at me....

Very interesting comment Steve buddy! We've been noting for a long time that of all professions the ones who seem to have the most representation in our client list are in fact dentists!!! Some of our dentist clients are actually friends too supplying us with dental filling equipment and chemicals for filling nut slots.

Say ahhhhhh!

Hesh, I'm surprised. I didn't realize we'd pegged the dentist demographic so well. We've been out in the country for about a year and a half now, a lovely stretch of very scenic, hilly roads. And we hear them all summer weekend long.

We just assumed that all the dentists had shot their wads (as it were) on Harley's.

Maybe I should stick a big sign out front for when they go by.

"Really Expensive Hand-made Acoustic Guitars."

We have sold a lot to people who play in church.

Hey Sam, that's interesting. I've found that "worship" players (forgive me if I've got the terminology wrong) seem to be way over-represented on the Acoustic Guitar Forum.

I wonder what makes them more engaged than other players.

Steve

Of the 50 guitars and 5 mandolins I have sold (directly) none except one have gone to "full time " professional players. They have been mostly "living room players" I.E. Doctors ,Lawyers and Indian Chiefs. Maybe a couple who gig part time . 90% of them have been over 50 years old.

As far as relying on my builds to make a living, I would be eating cat food and living in my car ( and not the Fancy Feast kind either). As a new builder ( as far as "selling" guitars goes) I still charge enought to make the builds worthwhile but as far as doing it full time, not yet anyways. My satisfaction comes from the client who tells me he has been looking for years for that certain guitar and after the long collaborative process of the build tells me, "That's it. That's what I have been looking for." The business is a hard road and if your passion isn't in making a beautiful instrument in both ascetic and sonic aspects and juggling to keeping the client happy at the same time, I could see becoming disheartened very rapidly. PS Anyone need any renos done on the south Island. ?? (joking )

_________________
Blue Ring Acoustics
blueringacoustics.ca