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I wish they took the time to consider being competitive. I recently put together a $1500 order, then called them and pointed out among other things, their matrix infinity pickup price was $20 higher than, say, a place I buy them on Amazon. I asked if they would meet that price. They pointed out I got a three dollar discount on some end pins and said no. So, they didn't get the order. There are some things where I get their pricing. But not on comodity stuff like pickups. So the order went from $1500 to about $120.

Whatever Stew Mac.

Mike

I love Stewmac and have been using them forever, but I totally agree with you on this point. With their luthier specific tools I totally understand the pricing (they make an amazing quality tool), but things like pickups should be price matched. In the Internet age, it's bad business to not be flexible with items that can be had at several other vendors. It's money walking out the door.

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Chris Alvarado
www.ChrisAlvaradoLive.com
www.Driftwood-Guitars.com

To me, it's just wrong to expect loyalty to a company become the basis whereby they can charge higher prices. If SM can't compete in commodity products, they shouldn't offer them. I for one wish they would become a one stop shop for me. But I already work for 50 cents an hour. I don't need them reducing that rate.

Mike, this isn't Mexico.

SM is a retail outlet. SM is a great retail outlet that has many good quality tools and helpful gizmos that you won't find else ware. That's mostly what I buy from them.

One-stops and Lutherie have never existed and I doubt that they will ever exist. Instead we have to source our stuff in accordance with what works best for us individually and how much we weight factors such as customer service, convenience, etc.

Our business, Ann Arbor Guitars is not a music store and we fought screaming and kicking to never become a music store either. We only do repair and restoration work but in our work we often have clients wanting us to get them a pup of one sort or another.

Part of the rub for us is that these days there are many great pup offerings out there and it's impossible for us to dedicate thousands for inventory in advance of sales and demand especially when we can't know what's going to sell and what's not.

Additionally what we have to pay for a pup, shipping, and the associated overhead is so very high that matching street prices of vendors who blow out pups by the dozens monthly is impossible for us.

With all of this said what are we to do: 1) attempt to be all things to all folks and lose our arses doing so to the point where it threatens the continuation of the business... or 2) sell for a bit more hoping that our clients understand that with the overhead that we carry, the convenience that we offer because of our central location, and ultimately the services that we provide that we are worth paying a few bucks more to keep our business viable for the public benefit.

What we have done is not stock pups most of the time. From time to time we will stock say three of something that we know sells but for the most part we tell folks to get what ever they want off the street and we will be happy to throw it in for them because that's the business that we are in, installation/repair and not being a retail store.

It works very well for us. We do not try to be all things to all folks, thankfully.... AND our clients more often than not are very OK paying a bit more to have the benefits of our services and very existence....

I used to work for the most famous CEO in the world and he was fond of saying be number one or number two in all that you do or don't do it.....

This is how I feel about Stew-Mac AND now being in the Luthier tool business too with the Collins Saddle Mill we recognize that what we offer and what we must charge is not for everyone. The hobbyist for example has a hard time justifying $2,700.00 for a tool but Elderly Instruments who also does world-class repair work most certainly didn't....

Stew-Mac does the best that they can in a very small, limited market that has a particular peculiarity to it where it's part hobbyist and part professional with both groups having very different needs.

We buy what makes sense for us from Stew-Mac and what does not make sense we get elsewhere. That's the nature of sourcing and to expect that any Lutherie supply house is ever going to be a one-stop with competitive prices on all things even highly discounted, commodity items such as pups is just unrealistic.

There will always be a divide between hobby Luthiers and what their needs are and pro Luthiers and what our needs are and as such any business entity that has to walk in these two very different worlds will have some tap dancing to do if it is even possible at all.

As such the hobbyist may say that Stew-Mac is high priced where the pro Luthier will be so very glad to even have Stew-Mac around that our focus is much more on the high value of the Stew-Mac offerings and how many of us use this value every single day to create even more value and....... get er done....

The same holds true for LMI IME with both companies being excellent resources for Luthiers and pretty excellent resources for hobbyists too. But again both companies have to walk in both very different worlds, cover their overhead so they can live to play another day, AND I'll add both companies provide world-class customer service as well.

Lastly I just threw an LR Baggs Anthem into a Heshtone that has a big gig next Friday and the Heshtone owner wanted a more lush sound from the pup more like what he hears acoustically from the guitar. I got him an Anthem, sold it at our cost, below actually since I did not factor in our overhead and he ended up paying less than $30 less than the street price. Mouse nuts...... What this also says and we get dealer pricing is to be competitive with pups with street pricing we won't make a dime.... Instead we likely lose money when you consider overhead and the time to source that has an opportunity cost of $85 an hour that I could be making repairing some Ov*tion or G*bson....

Stew-Mac is a great company and so too is LMI and we are fortunate to have them. For the hobbyists you may find the prices not to your liking but I will argue ever single time that most of us have no idea what it takes to be say Stew-Mac, having tools manufactured, sourcing them in sufficient quality to get the price down and then carrying the burden and opportunity costs of the inventory of things that may not sell out for years at a time....

Get your stuff where it makes sense for you, always but please consider that not everyone shares any opinion that any Lutherie supply house is high priced. Instead some of us feel very fortunate to have Stew-Mac and LMI catering to our needs, being there for us if there is a problem (including years later....), and always pushing the envelope to promote new ideas, methods, tools, not to mention the dissemination of quality information that comes from these organizations as well such as "Trade Secrets" etc.

Lastly Mike if Stew-mac won't budge on pricing........ good..... I would hate to hear that some of us have to pay more than others from the same vendor so you can see where this can lead.....

Regarding only making .50 cents an hour welcome to the world of guitar building..... You may be making more than I was when I was a builder....

Many vendors carry things that don't make them money at all and they do so as a convenience for their clients. The alternative is to not have these things available or the information that they also provide about the products available to us all.

You should always buy what you want where you want it but don't expect organizations to adopt the eBay model of letting people bid what they want to pay.... That's not how traditional brick and mortar business can operate as they struggle as it is with cheap, no service after the sale Internet competition.

In our business we are fast and loose with discounts and will give one for any reason offered including it's Friday.... But when a client tries to low ball having no idea the value that they will receive and likely not caring either we show them the door..... We won't try to be all things to all folks.....

My hope is that Stew-Mac will be around for decades to come (I hope that we all will be too....) and the likelihood of Stew-Mac's good fortune going forward is greatly enhanced because they run their organization like a proper business AND charge what they must.

On the other hand there is the other perspective as well and not directing this at anyone in particular but why be so freaking cheap, guys???? Are you aware as builders that your Internet footprint now tells your prospective clients that you are cheaper than...............................Hesh.......??? If I were considered cheaper than even....... Hesh I would be very concerned about that..... A prospective commission client might read this and wonder if you are going to use proper tone woods or banana crate on their instrument because you are a cheap arse.....

See what I mean..... there are always at least two perspectives, likely far more.

Don't expect Stew-Mac to dicker, don't expect to them to be capable of matching prices on commodity items, and don't expect them to screw you either because that's just not how Stew-Mac rolls.

Nonetheless we are very lucky to have Stew-Mac!

[quote="Hesh]I used to work for the most famous CEO in the world and he was fond of saying be number one or number two in all that you do or don't do it...[/quote]

Sure says a lot for the rest of us on the planet. Ego much for the most famous CEO in the world?
My only question is who's the judge...

As far as Stew Mac, they are pretty good at what they do. That always costs a little more. 'Bout all I ever bought from them was tuners and shell strips when I ran out. I knew I could get it in 2 days. I don't know if they still do, but they used to give a builder discount on certain items like tuners if you bought a grand per year. Did that for a number of years...

Forgive me if I am missing the point of the OP -- but this seems like we'd be asking SM to adopt, cut to the bone pricing and service standard, along with inevitable screw their employee practices. (it takes $$ to have inventory -- selling items to make pennies does not get it) Wasn't this type of retailing methodology condemned in other recent posts?

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I think the answer is hidden in the details. Points such as "then called them", and "I asked if", can be big clues to a company's operating costs,as well as the level of service a company can offer.

If you can call someone to begin with, that's one difference. If the person who picked up the phone was not in India and you didn't have to go through 6 keypad menu selections to get them, that's another. Then if the person was paid a living wage, had some proficiency in product knowledge or at least the ability to quickly connect you with a colleague in the same building who did, there are a few more.

These reasons, along with things such as scale of inventory flow or brick and mortar infrastructure in a real community, these make it impossible for them to price against large scale automated ordering, packed by overworked underpaid workers (sometimes on terms of questionably legal employment conditions), and shipped from a fulfillment center warehouse in some no-tax township along a freeway.

So I can certainly understand why one wouldn't buy a number of things from Stewmac which are readily available elsewhere for less. I can also understand why they can't price match everything though, and certainly wouldn't hold it against them.

We area dealer for a number of product lines directly from the manufacturers, yet often pay about 10% more by going through a middle wholesale distributor rather than the manufacturer. This is because they offer tremendous value by being able to make a single call, immediately get a knowledgable rep on the line, blast off a list of what we need without having to organize purchase orders to several different manufacturers, they always have what we need in stock, pack and ship it out the same day in one package with one shipping fee. We graciously accept spending the extra few bucks, because it is more than made up for in the convenience, service, and reliability they offer. With companies like this, and Stewmac, the key value to me is that although the price may be a little bit higher, when all things are considered the true cost for us is significantly lower.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

There was another one of these "the price is not right" threads a couple of months ago and I can't recall who did this but someone called Grobet and asked about their excellent nut slot files. The answer was that Grobet no longer makes these files because they were not profitable for them....

What results is folks who work in the trade and really need quality tools that we use many times in a single given day no longer have Grobet as a choice.....

Invariably someone will come by and say that they can cut nut slots with a tooth pick or the very stare of an ex girlfriend.... so why spend a few bucks on a proper tool.

For hobbyists I can relate although my take when I was a hobbyist was that I am still a stranger in a strange land and above all I don't want to screw the pooch for everyone else. So I bought professional quality tools and in my case it worked out well since my tools pay for themselves regardless of price many, many times over and I work in the trade.

There is also the issue of the results produced and again someone will invariably come along and proclaim that they can get the same results with a hack saw blade, welding rod, old string..... What also invariably results is someone such as I and others will also come along and dispute that whoever said this even knows what the hell they are talking about.....

This is the danger for those who dabble judging the wares and offerings of the valued supply houses that those of us who do far more than dabble and make our livings using these highly specialized tools daily.... You end up getting pissed off at the price and once in a while we end up no longer having something available to us at any price.

Everyone loses.....

Stew-Mac is not a place that I would ever expect to get a good price on a commodity item anyway - it's not their primary business model. Instead many of the Stew-Mac offerings require design engineering, feedback from the field (we have been beta testers for Stew-Mac in the past) and a considerable investment of time and money to bring an offering to market for our benefit.

I'm personally grateful to Stew-Mac and think that they are an outstanding outfit and a real pleasure to deal with.

I don't think I would have cancelled an order over $20. I buy a lot of times from SM because they are good and it's on my door step often times the next day. I've also been able to send expensive items like quality tuners back for a full replacement after they were on a customers guitar for 4 years and broke no questions asked. Yeah sometimes when placing an order you know you can get it cheaper elsewhere but the convenience of getting it all delivered together and on time every time is worth it. Plus typically something like a PUP is purchased by the customer after the price is disclosed anyway.

I will say though that I am one of those persons that slots a nut with the same cheap tooth picks I've had for the last 20 years and I'm stickin' to it

I'll bet that toothpick makes V shaped slots...... So when toothpick manufacturers go out of business it's on YOU JF!!!

I totally get what everyone is saying, and I'm seeing the light! The customer service is what you're paying for, and that ain't cheap!

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Chris Alvarado
www.ChrisAlvaradoLive.com
www.Driftwood-Guitars.com

Hard to believe you cancelled for $20 on a $1500 order

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Good on ya Chris! Customer service is only one of the justifications that I personally have for doing business with Stew-Mac.

In addition I know first hand what it takes to bring a Luther tool to market and will admit over and over again Stew-Mac, LMI too, are fantastic at getting costs out of these products while still maintaining an appropriate for the job (for pros....) level of reliability and quality. This is NO easy task these days and one has to also be schooled in international trade, manufacturing, China...., etc and all of this costs big bucks too.

I'll also add that Dan E. is a personal friend who has visited us before and will again too hopefully soon. The guys who work in the trade are not all together on some forum in fact most pro Luthiers that I know avoid Luther forums with a passion again because of heavymetalvomitdude and just how quickly some snot nosed punk can harm a working in the trade Luthier's reputation.... Anyway I digress, Dan is a friend and so too are all the good folks at the very few Luther supply houses and we want to support them any way that we can. Chris H. too and Natalie, and all the good folks at LMI!

Please understand that if you hang around this forum and others long enough a large percentage of the membership come and go with the passing years. Many who were once here and started as a hobbyist like I did lose interest, lose their shirt.... at times too.... or life's events force them to no longer actively pursue Lutherie.

It would be a crying shame if those who come and go, and I am not saying this applies to anyone in this thread, harm a well respected business with an Internet footprint that thanks to Google is available for all to see, benefits no one, harms one of the few suppliers in our industry, and then goes on their merry way looking for their next personal failure....

Me.... I'm not opinionated....

So good on ya Chris but we also want Stew-Mac to be around well into the future, LMI too and that means that when they deserve it, when they innovate or provide value the rest of us need to take note and do what it takes to support them so that we have them well into the future.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

JF, just tried an old toothpick and I see what you mean....

I also see that Uncle Bob posted in the thread too. Back when I was building I went out of my way to purchase from Uncle Bob too for the very same reasons that I noted above. He's put his money on the line and his faith in the rest of us that if he provides real value, and he most certainly does, and if he is there for us, and he was always there for me, we will do our end of the deal. That means supporting Lutherie vendors, OLF sponsors, etc. and not being a cheap bastage every day of our freaking lives ya know....

Hope you are well Uncle Bob!

This seems to be a common problem in this industry. Luthiers don't make a killing on guitars- we all know that. But luthier suppliers are exactly on the forbes top 100 list either. Everyone has a living to make and everyone has there own cost of doing business. If you really want to save every penny you can, go ahead and spend the extra hours to find the lowest prices. But if you do, you will find that you will have wasted a lot of time and will end up paying more in shipping buying from all those different places then if you had simply bought from one supplier in the first place.

Next time you have a client that comes to you saying "luthier bob" on the other side of the river charges x amount less than you do for a certain option or tonewood, think back to this situation.... Do you really want to deal with that sort of thing all the time? I know I don't.

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ELEVATE || Next Level Lutherie
http://elevatelutherie.com
&
http://ensorguitars.com

I ordered an item from amazon that was bad and I had to ship it back to them so they could see it and then make it right.
I ordered an item from Stew-Mac that was not right and all I had to do was tell them and a new one was quickly on the way.

Customer service like that is worth something

I like Stew-Mac!
They have saved my ass many times with quick shipping
& availability
The old saying is "you get what you pay for!

Stew-Mac delivers on that saying!
I've NEVER received any tool/wood/finishing products that was not
great!


Mc

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Mike Collins

I would say the opposite, I can't believe they would give up that order for $20 no matter what it was for. I'm assuming here that Mike doesn't get their wholesale pricing.

I like StewMac, I am glad they exist. Their service in many ways is excellent. However, being someone who doesn't qualify for the wholesale pricing, I don't feel they automatically deserve sympathy just for existing. There must be a large number of us who don't meet the requirement to get wholesale pricing and we are in the bizarre situation of asking for upcharges on things that our customers can purchase themselves FOR THE EXACT SAME PRICE. We are selling guitars, some of us more than others (me, not so many really!) but not treated as such by Stewmac.

I do understand that there is a cutoff between full professional and not and that Stewmac has that line for a reason. Understanding that, though, doesn't make me like it any more.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Burton your post is misleading in that you say that Stew-Mac even has wholesale pricing. To my knowledge they do not....

Everything that we buy from them is bought at catalog prices, the same that everyone else pays. There are quantity discounts listed for all to see and enjoy but beyond this the notion that pros get wholesale pricing is false..... and misleading.

As mentioned there used to be a Waverley discount for a certain level of buy and I believe there may still be a quantity discount for anyone to use if they qualify but don't quote me on that - I have not bought any Waverleys in a few years.

For those of us who do business in the retail world every day our pricing has to be something that we can proudly and honestly stand by. Although I'm very much a hip shooter when someone approaches me with a request for a break but couches it with the idea that they can go elsewhere that's where I encourage them to indeed go elsewhere..... If price is all you are concerned about with your 1947 Martin please go away.... Good work has a price..... and so do I! OTOH when some student, senior, vet, it's Friday, etc. asks nicely or expresses that it's hard for them to pay full price my hip shooting comes out and I give them a deal and am happy to do so. But again if I am approached with a threat to go elsewhere we don't want that business anyway. Chris mentioned this I believe and I completely agree. There is a time to walk away, we do it frequently and it sounds like Stew-Mac walked away from "let's make a deal" orders too...

I'll add that a client who is problematic coming in the door will likely be a freaking nightmare going out the door. Please use someone else's door I say....

So no wholesale pricing is available to working Luthiers either from Stew-Mac that I am aware of. It's not the business that they are in or the business model that they operate by and I can respect this completely.

Sometimes comparable value is not available.... at any price and many of the Stew-Mac and LMI offering are one-offs not available anywhere else.

One more thing we make many of the tools that we use and respect that. I'm mentioning this because many hobbyists get into this lutherie madness to satisfy their creative side and they like to make all that they can, jigs, tools, etc.

But if it comes to pass that what we can make is inferior to what we can commercially source and ultimately what is most important to us is not our egos.... but the high level of value that we wish for our clients we buy tools too and are happy to do so at Stew-Mac and LMI.

"There must be a large number of us who don't meet the requirement to get wholesale pricing and we are in the bizarre situation of asking for upcharges on things that our customers can purchase themselves FOR THE EXACT SAME PRICE."

Whenever I get a new StewMac catalog in the mail I notice many of the prices have gone up. I'm sure this is necessary to stay afloat, rather than them fattening their profit. I don't buy a lot from them, and I'm sure I don't meet their wholesale pricing requirement ,and that makes me by default, a retail customer. Even as a retail customer you get a price break for ordering multiples of the same item.
My StewMac wish list order might get up to $1500, but then reality sets in and $120 is all I can manage.

If it only applies to Waverly machines then I do apologize for saying it was across the board- It does at least apply to those, though.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Sheesh.... there is no wholesale pricing available to pro or hobby Luthier....

I'm sure that Stew-Mac discounts to manufactures such as Martin, Collings, etc. but I am also sure they buy by the hundreds something that none of us can do.

FWIW I rarely buy from Stew-Mac... But that just means I work harder and spend more time reinventing tools and jigs.
I have no idea if Messrs. Stewart and McDonald are living la vida loca with private jets, more mansions than they can count, and a politician in every pocket. As far as I know their customer service works 12hr shifts for $150 a month and are told to say their name is "Steve".
What I do know is that they have all the lutherie tools and supplies (minus wood) you could ever want or need. They even have the best Chinese humbuckers on the market. You want/need that?... You pay. You have the time and energy to make your own binding jig/radius dish/pickups/etc... You can have at it and pay MUCH less.
That is not a cut on the OP. I feel the same frustration. It's just a grim acknowledgement that S&T know what they are selling and expect as much from us as they can get. They are no charity supporting the arts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was just looking at their catalogue in the privy and they sell a 10 x10 piece of felt for $4.50 which I can buy locally for .50. I think that gives us, at least me, an idea of their markup. Their stuff doesnt just seem expensive, it is, but sometimes you cant buy local so you have to just do it while feeling your being taken.