Official Luthiers Forum!

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Hi Josh! Advertising is usually limited to sponsors, and in the paid classified section, unless ok'd by the forum owner, Lance.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Mr. Luttrell:

You might also consider participating here for a bit and sharing your finishing expertise, thus building both good will and recognition of your abilities. I would particularly love to hear more about how you get those spectacular varnish finishes on the Ellis mandolins (Ellis Mandolins, Austin, TX)...Mr. Ellis' endorsement over on Mandolin Cafe was quite succinct:

"The varnish finishes are done by Josh Luttrell in Missouri (though he used to be just down the street). No one can do the lovely yet organic finish that Josh can, no one."

I would really enjoy a post on your process and how you manage those lovely bursts shown on the Ellis site. Is Ellis still building/still finishing the Collings F-5 model?

You might also contact Mr. Kragenbrink for information on sponsorship per Mr. Kleon's note above.

Good luck!

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

+1 Mr Luttrell, your expertise would be very welcome.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I just had everything typed out and was about to send it when I lost connection, had to login in again, and lost all that I had typed. Ah, the joys of farm life. My babies are home for the day, and when I have some extra time, I will tell you all about my process.

When I've had problems like that, I type it in a word processor program first, then copy/paste into the post. Took me a time to learn

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Looking forward to seeing your process, Josh!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I just used an oil varnish, brushed it on, for the very first time on my last guitar and so far I like it a lot. I would have thought that the first time I try a finish out I would not get good results but it's far better than any water based finish I used and almost just as good as lacquer. I'd also be interested in hearing what your process is.

Count me in, too!

So pleased you are sticking around to share your expertise, Mr. Luttrell!

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

I'm back. I've spent the morning doing some work on the Ellis Winfield F, and have found a little bit of time to go through some of my varnish process.
First, I want to say how much I appreciate how the luthier community shares so much information with each other. It's like there are no trade secrets. I could tell you exactly how I do things, but in the end, your finished instrument may look nothing like one of mine. There's such beauty in individuality.
So, here we go. The first thing I do when I get a mando or guitar is look very hard for any cross grain scratches, especially on the top. I really don't want to have to sand the burst off of the top because I missed a scratch next to an f hole or any where else for that matter. Because I mix my colors with water, it will collect in that scratch and look like a black line. After it is fully inspected, I take a little bit of nitro and apply it on all of the binding joints. This dries quickly and will protect the joints from collecting any stain and looking like another black line. This will eventually get scraped off of the binding, and isn't necessary all the time, but an ounce of prevention... Next, I tape the fingerboard, binding, and the amber areas of the burst on the back, sides, and neck. This way, no over spray from bursting the top gets in the bright center of the burst everywhere else. Now, I'm ready to sunburst.
I use Trans Tint dyes for my color. You'll have to figure out which colors you want. I will say that I mix it with water and tend to make a heavy mix. I really like the colors to be strong and bright. I understand they're not cheap, but it really makes a difference. I do like to have a common element in each of my colors, even if it is just a few drops. From my experience, it aids in the blending of the different colors of the burst. Also, I like to mix up small batches of stain, as I like each instrument to be a little bit different.
I spray the sunbursts on the tops, otherwise the grain gets a little too crazy. I do this slowly and a little dry, blow drying a little between transitioning colors. I never want it to get too wet. When this is fully dry after a couple of hours, I apply a coat of Tru-oil gunstock finish to the top. This acts a sealer and makes it possible for me to handle the instrument while scraping the binding. When that is dry, I'm ready to burst the back, sides, and neck.
I use paper folded up pieces of paper towels do do this. I start on the outside edge and work my way in. I know this is the opposite way most people do lacquer based color, sprayed on bursts, but this is the way I like to do it. I work in small circular motions, always blending in my next color and always going back over what I've already done to keep things kind of wet throughout the process. This is a little scary as one drop of your dark color in the center of the burst can ruin your day, but just go slow and be aware of how you pass your hand with the color soaked paper towel over the instrument. When everything is colored, I let it dry for a day.
The next day, I start scraping. I love to scrape the binding clean. Take your time. Learn to love this part. Don't scrape too heavy as it will take more varnish and sands to fill the scrape line up. I have seen some incredible instruments by some of the best builders in the world, and they don't always care if they scrape the color off of the wood next to the binding. I do care and take my time. I might take anywhere from 2-4 hours to scrape an f style clean. It's a good time to just let your hands do the work and spend some time thinking about how to solve the worlds problems.
When the instrument is all clean, I apply a coat of Tru-oil to the instrument. This really makes the varnish adhere to the binding, as well as seal the wood. Just rub it on and rub it off. Before I did this, I would have issues sometimes with the varnish peeling off of the binding, especially if I had to tape something. The Tru-oil solved this issue. When the oil is dried, I start spraying the varnish.
I'm currently using Epifanes. I thin it a little with mineral spirits if it seems too thick to shoot through the gun. I stopped using expensive spray guns for the varnish as cleaning them was too big a hassle. I buy cheap ones and throw them away when they get too dirty. I understand this seems wasteful, but the time I save is important to me. When you do as much finishing as I do, you learn to prioritize. I try to save time however I can.
I spray a couple coats, let it dry a day or so, sand, and repeat until everything is smooth and flawless. This may take 3-4 sprays and sands, depending how good the wood sand was. A house is only as good as the foundation it is built upon. Same goes for finish. I use a 30 micron sandpaper between coats. It's a little expensive, but from what I've found, really cuts the varnish without leaving scratches that are too heavy.
When everything is sanded out, I spray the final coats and let it dry for as long as I can. Usually 4-5 weeks. The longer the dry time the better. It really makes a difference in your final sand and polish. For the final sand, I go straight to a 3M 2500 grit wet or dry. This does take some time, but I have a lot of control and usually don't burn through a layer. Unlike nitro, you can't just spot spray varnish. If you burn, you'll have to sand and spray the entire area, whether it's back, top, sides,etc... Also, you're opening yourself up to having issues with taping and overspray.
When it is all sanded out, I start applying Tru-oil. I wipe it on and wipe it completely off with cotton T-shirt material. I work on small areas at a time. I might do a coat on the back in four sections. I let the oil dry for about two hours and then apply another. It usually takes about 6-7 coats before I get the beautiful, creamy, hand polished look that I'm looking for. If need be, I'll hit it slightly on the buffing wheel just to blend things a bit. The longer you let things dry between coats, the easier it is to work with. When this is done, I srape the over spray off of the f hole sides, stain them, and then put it in a case and send it out the door. As much as I feel every instrument is my baby, I'm always ready to see them go. As Bill Collings once told me, "Mandos bad, checks good." Haha!
I hope this helps guys. when working with varnish, be careful what you have on your skin. No cologne, lotion, or even dust from inside your gloves. I've seen varnish do some crazy things from contamination. She truly is a finicky mistress, but how I love her.

Wow !!! Great write up. Nice to get an idea how a master finisher does it. Thank you for posting !!!

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Josh,
Thanks for sharing. I've never heard of anyone using your process of a Tru-oil sealcoat, sprayed varnish base coats, then top coats of more Tru-oil. Hmm ... time for me to head back out to the workshop for more experimenting.

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George :-)

Me too I never heard of topping off with Tru-Oil. But I guess Tru-Oil is an actual varnish so in a way it's just another coat of varnish and being a wipe on it goes on nice and thin and shines up the final sanded coat.

Hey, Josh, what about pore fill?

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Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

Hey Casey,

I don't use a pore filler. I work mostly with varnish and want the finishes to be 100% varnish. I would rather do more sprays and sands than add another material to the mix, not that I think anything is wrong with using a pore filler.

Josh, welcome to the forum and thank you very much for sharing your process and expertise here. Very generous of you!

I know this is a lot to ask, Mr. Luttrell, and while I am certain that everyone following this thread has made the trip to the Ellis Mandolin site to view your work, could I suggest a few pictures be posted here as well? Such lovely work!

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Hey Everybody, Been crazy busy before Winfield. Speaking of...I will be there from Wed.-Sat. Stop by the Ellis booth and say Howdy. I'll try to get some picks up when I get back. Take care.

I would dearly love to attend, and it's on my luthiery 'things to do' list, but work and the other job here has me busy through the first week of October...good luck with the show, and please post a few pctures for us stay-at-homes!

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower