Official Luthiers Forum!

Hesh--

Was the point of the list of professional Waverly users to show that the tuners are awesome? I'm assuming they are, in fact, awesome. But are they 2.5 to 3 times as awesome as these other brands? The funny thing is that I bet none of the builders on that list have to deal with answering that question, because they get a discount on buying Waverlys that is not available to me. I'm not complaining about that; I'm just saying that the professional builders who get a big discount that is only available to professional builders who buy in large quantities don't face the same "cost/benefit" decision I have to make. How many of them would be using Waverlys if they had to pay what I have to pay?

For customers that are bored with the common Gotoh 510's and Deltas found on so many small shop guitars with more modern styling, there are some other really nice modern open-back tuners available, including the Schertlers available through Stewart MacDonald (and well supported by them, with very good factory support) that we've used on a few commissions where the satin chrome finish with ebony buttons worked well, and Hipshot's Classic open backs in chrome, gold, and black finishes, which look equally at home on electric or acoustic instruments.

The Schertlers are close to Waverly on cost, but have been so well received by our customers that we offer them, along with Waverly, as the standard machine head on solid peg-head guitars. Unlike conventional open-backed tuners, Schertlers mount using a constant 10mm diameter peg-head bore for both the head and the press fit bushing, so there are no alignment issues or tweaking required for smooth operation, and no oversized washers showing. The Hipshot Classics, like the Schertlers, are 18:1 gear ratio tuners, but use a smaller, more rectilinear styled button and a screw-down bushing design. At OEM pricing, we pay about the same for the Hipshots as for a set of Grover Sta-Tites , and their factory support from Upstate New York has been excellent.

As a lower price option for tuner swaps, we pull the metal buttons on the latest version of the Grover Sta-Tites and replace them with ebony, black plastic, white plastic, or ivoroid. This is easily done with a modified drill press vise, and the buttons are counter-bored for the Sta-Tite shaft diameter and glued on with thin CA. Cost of the modified tuners runs about $60 per set, and we have not seen any issues as of yet with excessive play. Given the other options for ebony button open backs, the Grovers are a nice budget option for customers.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Hey Don! Actually the point of the list which is rather impressive I will add is that Waverlys are like it or not and regardless of the fact that there may be superior tuners out there as well the standard of the industry of which all others are judged by.

If we polled the market of high-end, Luthier built acoustic guitar clients Waverly would likely be the winner in desirability.

Or, in other words market pressures are in play here with Waverlys having a very good (and well deserved IMO) name.

Don one of the hallmarks of my posts on this forum is that I always believe that everyone should do what ever you wish. I would in no way tell you or anyone else what to buy and use. Nor would I appreciate being on the receiving end of this either.

I offered Waverlys on my guitars and most folks wanted them and also paid for them. It is what it is and as someone who has in the past sold jet engines, enterprise software, nuclear power plants, automotive plastics, CAT scan systems, and freaking light bulbs.... I'm keenly aware that we need to be sensitive to customer desires even if they don't entirely make sense.

That's why I offered the list because presumably these folks, many of them successful, in their experience offer Waverlys for a reason - to address the market.

And yes they are freaking expensive too!

If you only build for yourself and friends and family there are lots of great tuners out here for less cash.

Here's a question for the forum in general. Do Waverly tuners make a player a better player........ I kind of sort of became a Luthier because I am compensating for being a lousy player....

it would seem as though the only time tuner cost would be an issue is when the customer is you or when - as a builder - you have a fixed price point for a guitar. Otherwise, we pass the cost to the customer. I suppose Martin gets better pricing than we do, but they will still be building their cost and pricing model on what the guitar will cost them to produce, market, and sell against the competition.

For what it is worth, we do a reasonable number of tuner upgrades/replacements each month, and I am always surprised as to how many customers opt for Waverly tuners when the choices are traditional looking open back tuners. Reputation with players + effective marketing + great support seem to be the ingredients in their recipe.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

I've never purchased from G-jax but they are the only place I can find them at anymore. I used to buy from a man on eBay in Taiwan that sold a decent selection of the 510 open backs - he is out of business now. The 510 open backs are rare here in the US. I asked LMI to carry them but I got an email saying they would special order them for me but not stock them.

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

Thanks John.
I like to buy from LMI, Stew-Mac and the other sponsors here if possible. Just might have to try the direct order bit for those. I also am considering the engraved 510's. We'll see how it goes

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

I've ordered Gotohs from a guy named Scott Ando from Domo in Vancouver.

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Pat

http://www.japarts.ca/ sells Gotoh tuners. I bought some Gotoh open backs from Geo. Heinl in Toronto.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

They also have the complete selection of gauged net slotting files

That's where I bought my nut files from, Greg! If I remember correctly, when I added to my order, everything was discounted because it went over a certain dollar amount. Nice folks to deal with!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

I forgot to mention that Hipshot has a multitude of button choices available for their tuners, including oval, Schaller, Grover Roto, etc. The web site is not the most user friendly, but they do have a wide range of choices available for both their open and closed back machine heads. Setting up an OEM account is also quite easy, and Jason was very patient with me on our last order as I tried to decipher the boss's hand-written notes.

The other sources for Gotoh tuners mentioned reminded me of a question...has anyone managed to find a supplier outside of StewMac or LMII for Gotoh or Schaller brands that will handle warranty exchanges in a timely fashion? The last time we exchanged a set of Schallers that we could not trace to a supplier (this was on an older Gurian with a bad M6 head), we ended up eating shipping to and from Germany and about six weeks of time. Neither StewMac nor LMII carry the specific options on buttons and finishes that we would like to use, so we end up sourcing through suppliers that have no real warranty support capability beyond forwarding them to the factory.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

As far as open backs go:

I just tried my first set of Schaller "Grand-Tune" Machines and I like them better than the Waverlys. Nicer machining. I believe they are around $100 in chrome

I also installed my first set of Rubner tuning machines-Wow really tight tolerances virtually no backlash and pretty to boot.
The set I got was around $120.

Hans, I never thought I could out "old school" or out "crumudgeon" you but I hate those 21/1's, I can suffer with 18/1 and am liking 16/1 a lot more and am perfectly happy with 14/1s
This isn't a bike I am riding up a steep hill, it's a tuner. Gear ratio is not an indication of anything other than more teeth. More is not necessarily better.
IMHO of course.
L.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

I often play in small orchestra groups and tuning accuracy is crucial. So in my case the 18:1 ratio is the bomb. Different strokes.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

The baseplates are die cast, not machined.
Check out post #51.

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/154926/Any-one-tried-the-new-Schaller-open-back-Grandtune-tuners?page=3#.V8XEdNQrL6o

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John