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After reading so much about General Finishes' Enduro-Var here on the forum, in late June I decided to order a can to compare to Cardinal's Luthierlac, and french polished shellac on test panels of lutz spruce and redwood. They've been ready to buff for a while, but I just got around to it this afternoon and thought others might be interested in my results.

The Products:
- General Finishes Enduro-Var
- Cardinal Luthierlac
- Kusmi Amber Buttonlac from ShellacShack.com

Process
When I applied the Enduro-Var and Luthierlac, I just brushed them on with a foam brush. I brushed six coats of the Enduro-Var, leveled it a week later, and brushed on six more. I followed the same process with the Cardinal. When the Cardinal had had a few weeks to cure, I leveled both finishes, then wet sanded with 600 and 1000 to get it ready for the buffer. I buffed using the process Chris Ensor shared here (it was fantastic Chris - thanks!). If this were a guitar, I'd spray the lacquer to ensure thin coats that don't require a lot of work to level. This time though, my concern wasn't finish thickness, and brushing was just fine.

The french polish process I used was the process taught by Tom Bills in his french polishing course. Although, I have to be honest, I didn't do the third group of bodying sessions, which may have effected the outcome. By the time I was done with the second group, I had a pretty good idea about my preferences.

Working With the Finishes
Working with Enduro-Var was a dream. It had little to no odor, and I simply brushed it on next to the kitchen sink. It was also the easiest finish I've ever leveled -- sanding this stuff level required minimal effort.

The lacquer was lacquer. The fumes can get to you if you're not wearing a respirator, and they linger for hours, even overnight. Even though Cardinal says Luthierlac is ready to buff in seven days, giving it a few weeks seems to make it it a lot easier to level, at least to me.

I can't say how much I enjoy Tom's french polishing method. It's work, but it's somehow soothing. The shellac doesn't have much of a smell, either, and the smell it does have is pleasant. I did my french polishing inside, too.

Results
As a hobbiest, I'm only building a guitar a year. Any exposure to lacquer is infrequent, and I take precautions. That said, I hate spraying. I don't like the compressor noise, and setting up the gun always makes me feel like I'm starting the learning curve from scratch. That's the attraction to french polish to me, and also what had me really interested in Enduro-Var. John Greven said that he brushes it on in American Lutherie #118. When I did these panels, I told myself I was going to use the finish that most made light refract like a diamond. In my opinion, that's the Cardinal, followed by shellac, and then Enduro-Var. The lacquer and shellac are neck and neck IMO, with the lacquer having only the slimmest edge. The difference I see between them and the Enduro-Var in the subtleties. I hope I picked some of them up in the images, but the lacquer and shellac have more depth. They're a "wetter" looking finish when you move the panels around and let the light hit them from different angles -- more prism-like.

If you look at the pictures, the Enduro-Var looks a little yellow-green to me. It's been described as amber-toned, but it's a little more green to my eyes. Even though it's a nice finish, it doesn't bring out the detail in the wood like the lacquer and shellac do. It's there, but with the lacquer and shellac, it's just there more. Again, they have a prism effect that the Enduro-Var seems to have 20-30% less of. It looks good and has a great high sheen, but it doesn't make the light dance and sizzle in quite the same way.

The shellac and lacquer are very close in color. The shellac is just a hair warmer. I tried to pick that up in the pictures, but photographing these was hard!

Well, there you go. I'm attaching some images, but I had to make them a bit low-res to meet the file size requirements. Please feel free to download higher-res versions on my Google Drive. I set my white balance using a grey card, so the color is pretty true to reality, at least on my monitor.

Great side by side by side test, James! EnduroVar really is a user friendly finish. I've sprayed 10+ gallons of it for cabinetry over the last 4-5 years. I did notice a couple of times that there was a bit of a green cast when it was over a dark stain. Maybe a couple of coats of sanding sealer would prevent this.
One thing that I would stress for anyone spraying water based finishes, is to use a good quality spraying mask. Don't be fooled that it is safe to breath into your lungs just because it doesn't have the same smell as nitro, or any other solvent based finish.
One other test that you might consider is a water/alcohol comparison, after everything has cured for a few months. Thanks for sharing with us!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

So James, what's the verdict? You going to go with the nitro or the shellac?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

One possible suggestion to get the pop effect that is provided by oil based finishes is to use an epoxy sealer underneath. I have found that using system 3 clear coat really gives most of the effect of an oil based finish. Once the resin is cured you should be able to spray most finishes over it.

Thanks, Alex. When I read about all the finishes people use, the biggest question I have is always, "I wonder what it looks like?" Doing this for recreation, I'm willing to muscle through just about any finish process if it'll be worth it in the end.



I really don't know! I'd like to use Cardinal on the back and sides, but possible french polish the top for the acoustic benefits. I really like the shellac on the spruce, but I can't see any difference color-wise on the redwood. The biggest question becomes how to blend the transition between the two around the perimeter.



I completely agree. I haven't used System 3, but all of mine have been filled with Z-poxy. It really makes things pop. My next test is a Z-poxy fill sanded down to bare wood on one scrap I have, and another sample with a thin layer of Z-poxy on top.

After doing a few necks with straight Enduro-Var, we have been working through John Greven's schedule for System 3 Silvertip epoxy fill and Enduro-Var on some test pieces, and hope to have some completed panels soon. We are doing both thickened and unthickened epoxy fills on mahogany, so we should get some idea of whether there is much of a difference in number of coats required. I'll be interested in seeing how the Z-Poxy fill looks, and whether that adds some sparkle to the Enduro-Var finish.

One thing that Greven emphasizes in his notes is that sanding back through the epoxy creates noticeable differences in surface appearance - especially on rosewoods. This is what we have seen with other epoxies as well when using Mohawk Classic Lacquer with Z-Poxy, West and MAS systems. I am interested in what differences you see in the sanded-to-wood panels and the scuffed epoxy panels.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Wow that's a good side by side comparison. Thanks for taking the time to take photos and post them.

Laquer on the back and sides and french polish on the top is used by several people and is what my preference is.

I really like the color and the appearance of depth that the shellac gives.

Personally, I can't imagine that there's much difference in sound between a few coats of lacquer on a top vs a fully french polished top. Typically, those who shoot nitro use less coats on the top, and when you're dealing with a very thin final thickness of nitro, it shouldn't be much different than the shellac, and perhaps easier to get it to look consistent with the rest of the instrument. Just my opinion, and I'm sure there are others who would gladly disagree, but I'm just putting it out there for thought.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Agreed --- but seems the better classical players insist on FP on at least the sound board -- so I'd go with the flow. $.02

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Fortunately for me, I'm not locked into a world where that is a necessity. I leave classical instruments to those who really understand them a lot better than I ever could...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Call me old and senile, but isn't the Cardinal the same stuff as the old McFaddens?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I believe Seagrave bought out McFadden's ----- Cardinal is a different coatings company. Mohawk and Behlens may be the same.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

By looking at you pics I would agree that the lacquer looks best to my eye. When I did water base finishes years ago I would first do a coat of shellac just to give it that nice oily look but I could never ever ever ever get a water base finish to look good and gave up on it. They always have a dull look or some sort of bluish look to them or I guess in your case green. At least for me anyway. Good old lacquer and FP is all I do though I have been experimenting with varnishes and so far like the results.

Is the Cardinal a water-based lacquer then?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Cardinal is a solvent lacquer, it a lower viscosity out of the can than Mohawk/Behlen so needs a few extra coats. Its advantage is it can be level sanded and buffed after 7 to 10 days so speeds up the process. It is obvious from the test panels that the lacquer is the best looking, everyone wants to get an easier process but I will spend the time with lacquer. My top finishes are from .004 to about .0045" thick after level sanding and buffing, I measure from the masking I remove in the bridge area when installing the bridge.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

Fred, I'd love to hear your process. On my last guitar, I sprayed about 8 coats, leveled, and buffed after sanding to 1000.

[quote="Tim L"]Wow that's a good side by side comparison. Thanks for taking the time to take photos and post them.[quote]

Thanks, Tim.



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[quote="jfmckenna]When I did water base finishes years ago I would first do a coat of shellac . . .[/quote]

I think I forgot to mention it, but that's what I did, too. I sealed the panels with the shellac I FP'd with.



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Exactly as Mr. Cierpilowski said - Seagraves bought the rights to the McFaddens formulations and makes a lacquer that matches well with the old MSDS. Both Mohawk and Cardinal instrument lacquers are about 30 percent lower solids than McFadden/Seagraves, although it appears that Cardinal has a little less in the way of plasticizers with it's faster drying time to buff. If freight were not quite so much from the West Coast, we'd probably have switched to Cardinal - it's a nice finish that is buffable just a week after it goes into the drying box.

Direct from the manufacturer saves some money versus buying from the local distributor...we get Mohawk Classic for about $38/gallon with 10-20 gallon orders, and about $40/gallon in 4-6 gallon lots.

_________________
A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

For those interested in using the McFadden/Seagraves nitro lacquer process, here's a PDF of the recommended finishing schedule I got from the Mcfadden techs a decade or so ago.

http://acousticguitarconstructionforum. ... hp?id=1115

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/