Official Luthiers Forum!

Howdy all!

True noob here - actually I don't think I've quite acquired noob status yet as I'm only at the stage of luthier wanna-be. But I wanted to ask some more experience folks a few questions to make sure I'm on the right track.

I'm an IT guy and have spent most of my career staring at computer screens, but I've always enjoyed working with wood. Everything from cutting and splitting it to finished round and flat pieces. I've built a few pieces of furniture here and there, but have more experience on the lathe than anything.

My shop is fairly well-furnished with power tools, but I do have some gaps I plan to fill in the next year or so. I also have access to a family sawmill - an ancient behemoth with (currently) a 42" blade that my father-in-law remodeled to run off the PTO on his tractor.

I have played guitar for over 20 years. I've read a good bit about action setup techniques, tonewood properties and a little about the actual construction of steel-stringed acoustics, but I'm a hands-on kinda guy. I learn best by watching and doing. I wouldn't mind just setting in and starting a build, but I think I'd progress faster if I could spend some time with a luthier that knew what they were doing.

The direction I have in mind is to learn my way around a luthier's shop to get a better idea how to set mine up and what tools are preferred and how best to use them. I also like the idea of doing setup work and repairs on existing guitars so I'd like to get some hands-on there (with proper supervision) before actually charging money for the work in my own shop.

So my big question is - does anyone know of a luthier in the vicinity of north-central AR that wouldn't mind an occasional shadow?

I hope you get a response from a local builder that can help you out. In the event that you don't, a nice option might be to buy a kit from LMI and follow Robbie O'Brien's online video course. He takes you through step by step and show multiple tooling options to try to accommodate all shop sizes.


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Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

I'm in Kansas City and offer shadow and hands-on classes. Feel free to call or text if you simply want to visit and talk for an hour. 614 348-2147. I see you are in Mountain Home, AR, that has been an as-yet unfulfilled fall motorcycle trip for me.

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It will probably be alright.

Thanks guys!

Greg, I may call you when I get a little closer to being ready for some shadowing. I was born in Smithville and have wanted to go back for some time. I'm blessed with a ridiculous amount of personal time off work so I'm not opposed to spending time a little further away to get where I wanna go. Appreciate the offer!

H Wes,

As a fellow noob I'd encourage you to dive in. I've enjoyed building stuff all my life and have a modest workshop. I decided to try building an acoustic guitar after reading a few books and surfing the web a bit. I *just* finished my first one last weekend, and have a second well on it's way to completion. Folks on this forum have been really helpful and supportive.

The #1 challenge I had with this project was the neck to body joint. I decided to use a tapered dovetail since it's "traditional". I bought the LMI jig for doing this, and for whatever reason really struggled to get a good fit. Part of the problem was certainly inaccuracy and flex in the jig. Part of the problem was the shape of the body at the joint being curved, and possibly not as true top-to-bottom as it should have been. Part of the problem was certainly inexperience on my part. I suspect that a mortise/tenon bolt on joint would be less drama.

Just going through the process was really educational. I expected to make plenty of mistakes and I wasn't disappointed! But I also hoped that I'd end up with a playable guitar in the end and the experience to build a better one -- which I did. This one has lots of cosmetic issues (dye burst ins't what I wanted, one bad spot in the binding where I over-scraped it, purfling got stained with dye in some spots, etc, etc), but the action is good, it's definitely playable (and fun to play) and sounds pretty good. Better than my Alvarez parlor guitar that I started learning with, but not as good as my Martin CEO. It's a ladder braced guitar and has it's own sound.

Just break it down into a series of smaller projects. I started by building a fox-style bender, then a go-bar stand, then the forms and patterns for the guitar body and neck (a Gibson L-1 style in this case). If you have a woodshop you can probably re-saw wood for the back and sides from stuff you get locally, which is a bit cheaper. I also stalled out working on it for a while due to work and family issues ("life") and having to remake the neck due to an error in the plans, so it took me probably 10 months start to finish. I think the second one will be about a six weeks of weekend work when it's done and it's got more flash going on.

Jump in and do it!

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Blog on Making Stuff: http://www.McGlynnOnMaking.com

Completely agree, just jump in and don't worry too much how the 1st one will turn out cosmetically. In doing so, when you do have a chance to rub elbows with someone with more experience, your questions will be way more fruitful for both parties.

No need to spend too much on materials either.

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Pat

I was always a dive right in kind of guy too. Go for it.

Some smart people did a study last year on learning and they found out that there were two groups of people building a widget. One group first did insane research and detailed drafting and planning and learned everything about the widget before executing their plan. The second group was already on their 10th widget before the first group had even started. The point being the group that dove right in and learned by doing made an awful lot of mistakes and the first ten widgets were no good but because of that their learning experience was much more valuable then the other group and as such went on to build better widgets.

Names and numbers were altered to protect the innocent.

Thanks again guys. I'd go nuts if my first widget didn't turn out at least 90% perfect, or maybe spend a lot more time than I should re-making stuff that I got wrong the first time. I tend to let perfection be the enemy of progress. Drives my wife crazy

But y'all are right - I have some reorganizing to do in my shop and a few more tools to pick up, but I think I need to just dive in and see what happens. First I have a new dining table, some turned pieces and a few shop fixtures to finish up before I can get started. Also will be building a garage onto my shop this summer so I can move some clutter out of the way and get my boat and truck covered. Gonna try to clear my plate a bit before diving in.

Anyway, y'all keep posting and I'll keep reading. And hopefully this time next year I'll have something that looks like a guitar to show off.

Don't obsess about tools. It's really easy to get caught up in this or that tool... And for the most part - the minimum required tools are pretty minimal. What happens is that you start tool collecting, jig and fixture building.. 3 years pass and you could have built 3 or 4 guitars but you are still worrying over this or that tool which you really don't need.

Check out Cumpiano and Natelson's book "guitar making tradition and technology"... It has about the minimum required tool set.

From the sound of it - I have similar tendencies. I wasted about a full year fooling with old planes and chisels before I just bit the bullet and got to building a guitar. I finally forced myself to just get on with it... And I have never looked back.

Now - I just build or buy something as I really need it.... But I don't do that until I price to myself that I do... Saved me a lot of time, money, and headache.

So unless your hobby is collecting tools and jigs - just get to it....

Over the years the magazine American Lutherie has published some articles about how different builders have laid out their shops. I could scan thru my stack of back issues and see if I can find them. One of the important things seems to be separating dirty tasks from finish, setup, etc. Obviously maintaing the right environment, good dust collection, good fume control are all import (while saying all of that, I build in the corner of a three car garage and my wife is always complaining about dust on her car.

I started by building a serviced kit (plate thicknessed, sides bent, brace stock ripped, neck rough shaped), then an unserviced kit, and finally am scratch building. Each time I thought of the tool that would have made the previous one easier or that I want to add a new challenge (shape the neck, bend the side) so I would add a too or fixture.

I've also started doing repair work for my local music store. Repairs are almost always more challenging than doing it from scratch - fixing finish is particularly tricky. I'm willing to take on those repairs that don't make sense - resetting the neck on a complete piece of junk or refretting a hundred dollar guitar (and charging next to nothing). That way I learn and the owner gets a playable guitar.

Before you actually start charging for your work get your chops really together. Build guitars for family or friends, do setups on every one you can (and get feedback from players), read build threads (and learn along with the builder what can go wrong). Most of all, enjoy the journey.

This!!

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

For your first guitar, make sure your shop is properly humidified. Don't know if you would ever need a de-humidifier, but you really ought to get your humidity to 42-45% with a good humidity gage and keep it there. Next, buy some decent wood (not great) and sticker it for 5-6 months. Do this before buying that 3K bandsaw...

Y'all got me questioning my plan I'd love to just dive in, but I really do have some prep work to do first.

First of all I need to get my 'garage' built onto the shop. It is mainly for the boat and truck, but it will also give me room to move my dust collector and air compressor outside. One entire wall in my shop is built-in cabinets where I store my camping/fishing/etc gear and all that will be moving out there as well to free up floor space.

Second, my shop has bare stud walls, so I need to finish covering the walls, install and insulate the ceiling and install a new door. I also plan to treat the slab with epoxy to help control humidity.

While all this is going on I'm gonna have my electric split off from the house so I can get more than 90 amps. That will allow me to install a mini-split heat pump so I can control the environment better. I will also be installing new LED lighting and a couple of custom air cleaners ducted through the ceiling.

While all this is going on I'll be finishing up some current projects and picking up a few tools I've been able to do without so far, but will need going forward.

What I have:
17" bandsaw
12x48 lathe
3hp table saw
6" jointer
miter saw
bench mortiser
2hp DC (may upgrade)
10gal AC (will upgrade)
drill/jigsaw/palm sander
good selection of clamps
full set of Narex bench chisels
couple of off-brand planes
Other random and sundry hand tools and a couple of benches, but that's the gist of it

What I plan to pick up this year:
drill press
router (for table)
trim router
couple of hand saws
couple of new hand planes (at least a low-angle jack and smoothing plane)
spokeshave
And of course a passel of luthier-specific tools for measuring, fretwork, etc

I have a couple of benches, but I plan to build a sturdy one specifically for hand tools with a couple of of wood vises. Also will be building a cart for my miter saw and router table.


This is all overwhelming to think about as I've been dreaming of a shop like this for years, though in my mind's eye it looked a little bigger In reality I don't know how long all the above will take, but I'm hoping to get it all done in under 2 years. I figure I'll get to a point before the year is over when I won't be able to wait on my first build anymore, but for now I gotta get a few things off my plate before I can start building.

I'm definitely in the dive in and do it crowd, also I grew up in my dads cabinet/furniture shop and have/had access to every tool you can imagine. I use my thickness sander, table saw, bandsaw for the power tools, and I find I'm primarily a hand tool guy. Be able to really sharpen edge tools. First guitar probably won't be perfect, ( or the first ten) but build and learn. We have a large group that meets the 2nd Sunday of the month at our local Woodcraft, 100 some odd names on the email list and honestly 10 actually have built anything and 5 or 6 on a regular basis. Make sawdust lots! Don't spend a ton of money on the best wood for the first few builds and be happy with a good sounding playable guitar. Good Luck

I have taken the liberty to edit your post a bit tongue and cheek... But perhaps you will get where I am going....





Here's where I am going to throw down the gauntlet.. 90% chance you will never start a guitar - and if you start, you will never finish it. You have talked yourself into 100 years of pre-work and $20,000 worth of stuff you feel like you have to do before you can build a guitar that's not nearly as complicated as a fancy coffee table.

And you will never get there.

Prove me wrong. Get a kit and build it with what you have now.

The way you learn to build guitars is to start by building a guitar. Building guitars is the key thing... Not obsessing over the perfection of the entire universe...

I built my first guitar on the kitchen table. I jointed the top on a breadboard. I thicknessed the top, back, and sides on the table using a Stanley hand plane and sand paper/blocks.

I used a folding table outside to do all the router work.

I currently use an old office desk as a workbench... You have 10x as many tools as I have now - and I am getting ready to start #10...

This ^^^

I haven't quite figured out if you want to just build a guitar or two or actually get into business as a luthier (or something in between). If you just want to build a guitar, do it. Like John, I built my first with mostly hand tools (a laminate trimmer, cordless drill and Dremel were my only power tools. That was 2006 and that is still my go to guitar. Since then I've added many of the tools in your quiver, but not all (one that I would add to your list is a bench belt sander), I've built a bit over 20 instruments and have sold a few that covered material costs but certainly not labor.

So I guess you need to decide - do you want to build a guitar or a shop?

Well tweaked And you're right, I do have a lot of projects that will be going on at once. But I have my reasons, mainly that my wife is about to sell her business and we need to invest some of the profit to reduce taxes. My suggestion was to investing in my dream of becoming a semi-professional woodworker either as a new career or for retirement income, and she bought it And if I don't allocate the money now it won't be there later. You married guys know what I'm talking about!

And yes, that $20k mark isn't far from what I have in mind. That will allow me to build pretty much whatever I want in a clean and well-organized space. I'm pretty ADD so I know I will get bored if I focus too much on one discipline. I *think* building guitars for a living sounds like a blast, but I also want to be able to build other things on commission so I can step away from guitars for a while if I want to.

So yes I want to build a few guitars, but I eventually want to be a guitar builder. The sooner I get my shop fixed up the sooner I can make both a reality.

And Freeman, I forgot to list my belt sander. Wonderful tool! As far as materials I don't plan to spend much as a course. I know I will have to buy the hardware, but I have a good supply of local hardwood lumber and want to focus on using materials I can harvest and mill myself. I may eventually buy some exotic woods, but I have other plans at the moment.

Anyway, maybe my plan makes a little more sense now.

Go for the local hardwood and resaw you're own back and side sets. Get your tops from one of the forum sponsors, I like the Sitka from Alaska Specialty Woods. The top is the most important piece of wood in the guitar, and it's worth the cost to get perfectly quartersawn wood with little to no runout.

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A man hears what he wants to hear, and disreguards the rest. Paul Simon

Are you currently selling your wares? Are you building things intentionally to sell?

At school I see 20-30 first guitars a year get built. Some guys go out and buy $2,000 of Lie Nielsen hand planes, some guys I swear are chewing the wood with their molars and scratching it with finger nails.

Three observations I'll share:

1) nice tools don't build guitars for you.

2) a completed poplar and pine guitar made in a carport with no humidity control is infinitely nicer than a bear claw German spruce and Brazilian Rosewood guitar built in an amazing shop with humidity control that is still in pieces sitting in a box.

3) 30 people start the program every year, 15 believe they are going to be able to sell their guitars, after 12 years in the program I know of only two students who have even paid their shop costs making guitars.

So, I would say build the shop you want because you want it --but not because you need it to build guitars or because it is an investment in a new luthier business.


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Food for thought:

viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45044&hilit=living+the+dream

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

That was great reading and helped me get a better perspective of the industry. I don't have any plans to build >$5k guitars, but I realize I can't make a living solely off $1k and lower guitars. But I don't NEED to make any money off them for now and actually would just as soon give them away to beginners and friends as well as making a few for myself. If it turns into a business in the future it would be ideal, but it won't hurt my feelings if it doesn't. The part that interests me as much as making them is doing setup and repairs on existing instruments, which is where I feel I can make more income to support this as a hobby until such time as I can't keep up with the work.

And yes, I have sold quite a few pieces of round wood, but most I have given away to family and friends. I don't care as much for making furniture so I've never sold any of those pieces. The last turned ones I sold were a walnut crotch bowl and platter that went for $290 and $240 at auction, but I usually only sell enough to keep my tools and materials up.

This is a holly stump I dyed black and sanded back to pop the grain. The finish is a home brew Danish oil, buffed and waxed. I was offered up to $400 for it and could have sold it for more, but I already had plans to give this to my mom for her b-day last year.



This is the only piece I have saved on Photobucket. I haven't figured out yet how to post ones on my machine or I'd show more.

At the moment all other projects are on hold until i finish building a draw leaf dining table for my wife. It is red oak with post oak edges and breadboard ends on the top and leaves, all from wood I sawed from trees we cut out of our yard.


Guys, this is just fun for me. I enjoy making things I can use far more than buying them. I write code to pay the bills, but I get my joy from creating art that people enjoy and will actually use, singing and playing guitar/bass/mandolin in my church praise band and teaching music theory and guitar to kids at church. Maybe it should stay that way, but I want a nicer shop so I can build nicer pieces and that my boys will enjoy using as well. If I never sell a guitar I'll be just as happy.

And I'm not in a hurry. I finish projects as I have the time and want-to. Not a good recipe for a career change, so maybe that's not in my future. I guess I'll just continue down this road until I'm ready to start building guitars and see what happens.

This is where I was hoping you would end up...

Doing stuff like this is fun because it's a hobby. As soon as you turn it into a job - it becomes a job that's not as much fun as a hobby...

And so - don't obsess about it, just build one.

Let your job stay your job. It's paying you for now - and that's a lot more than can be said for most "furniture making businesses" ...

The last 2 guitars I have finished were gone within a day of being finished. Honestly - this doesn't make me happy. It doesn't give me any time to play it for myself or to carry it around and gloat over it to my friends. And sure - I didn't sell them... But they were gone to someone else nonethesame.

And I think this says something about whether I would be happy with this as a business... I think the answer is NO.... Watch Michael Greenfield's video about his building process... Once they finish the setup and put the final strings on it - it's no touching till the customer gets it. The Customer is the one who gets to have the fun of playing them and putting on the dents...

Custom builders don't get to PLAY their guitars much - because playing risks dinging them up... And dings = money + unhappy customers....

And so for now - I am not ready for my hobby to turn into something like this....

Here's how you dive right in:
Play enough guitars to know which features you want in your first build.
Find some junk guitars. They are everywhere, at yard sales, in your neighbor's closets. Music stores usually have piles of parts and broken guitars they took in on trade; if you ask the manager he knows where these things are.
Repairing and setting up these guitars will teach you the most important lesson you need, which is that in guitar building the dimensions and shapes of the fretboard, frets, nut and bridge need to be fine adjusted to a precision of thousandths of an inch. Metalworkers have an easier time learning this than carpenters.
The second important concept is that acoustic guitars are highly engineered objects where every part should be as light as possible so that it is just strong enough to keep the string tension from folding the guitar up. Making better guitars generally means copying existing designs and trying to build very light. It is the opposite of carpentry where you use your ingenuity to build more strength into the object. In lutherie you want to copy designs that have proven themselves to sound good; many parts are much lighter and smaller than you might guess. It is not an improvement to make the thing stronger.

Not an original thought, but I'm going to pile on a bit, with a little bit of my own view. Definitely go for it.

Building my first guitar, without a course or even a kit, really, was a really really gratifying experience. Frustrating, incredibly frustrating at times. Felt like two steps forward, one step back, over and over again. Because the first guitar will never be close to perfect. The real accomplishment should be to complete it, and end up with something that is playable. I think this is a reasonable goal (for me anyway). And this forum is such a fantastic resource. There's NO WAY I'd have gotten there without all the great advice, help, feedback that I got from this group.

I also bought Cumpiano's book , which was crucial. There was another book which I found to be a very good complement, Build Your Own Acoustic Guitar, by Jonathan Kincade. Lots of good pictures, and was just right for a beginner.

If you're a perfectionist, I'd suggest you resist the urge to chuck it and start again if you end up with some SNAFUs that are simply part of the process. In fact, I learned a lot from having to get creative when things went sideways. (I also learned that router bits need to be secured tightly before routing the channel for the truss rod..... or you'll be seeing daylight through the back of the neck. Yep.. anyway, rather than pitch the neck and start again I repaired it, and got on with it.

And most important.... Have fun!