Official Luthiers Forum!

Soooooooo hard to get perfect.
If, by chance, one were going to experiment with a hand rubbed oil type finish..... (thinking of my lovely halcyon that Ed built) what would one experiment with? Asking for a friend of course


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I think the only "oil" type finish I would consider is Truoil which is not a true oil finish but rather more a wiping varnish. Oil finishes sink into the wood rather than sitting on top of it which I think adversely affects the sound. Perhaps that is all in my head, but that is where my ears are located.

As Clay said, Tru Oil would be the most obvious choice even though it isn't an oil. It is easy to apply and you can get good results if you are patient.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I know you want to do this Tru-oil thing but I just wanted to share my safe method of spraying lacquer which I think is the king of DIY finishes. I'd love to use polyester but that's even more dangerous to spray. I have sprayed lacquer in the dead of winter in my driveway. I just won't use anything else. I really want to but I just don't have any faith that the results will be as good. I've seen tru-oil finishes and they just don't cut it for me.

So I go outside, no need for an explosion proof fan. It doesn't take long to get a coat on a guitar or neck so you're back inside where it's some what warm in no time. So warm body or neck and the finish, go outside spray and come back in. It dries so fast I've never even had to remove a bug. Humid days are the worst but a little reducer takes care of that.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!
That's a reminder for me.

"Alan Carruth, IMO the 12-fret 000 or 14 fret OM size (15" wide lower bout) is god's size for the steel string guitar, especially for fingerstyle. I would also try to get away from scalloped bracing and lean toward 'straight' or 'tapered' bracing. Scalloped emphasizes bass and 'punch', where straight bracing, and especially 'tapered' (sometimes called 'parabolic') leans more toward treble and sustain."

As reference. I have finished 5 instruments w Em6000 and 2 w nitro. I’m just having issues w perfection and accepting my limitations. (That’s a subjective thing I guess). I haven’t give. Up yet just exploring


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The rest of the 13 were French polished. I’m still trying to find what MY finish is I suppose.., and I know it takes reps and corrections to get it right


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I am a big fan of Tru-oil.
It is easy, relatively inexpensive, no special equipment needed, mostly odour free and gives me great results. Here are the last 3. These are all pore filled using TO. 1-2 weeks to complete, 1-2 to harden, lightly polished with 3M compound, then waxed with carnauba. The 2-3 final coats of TO are applied thinned ~25% with mineral spirits.
I do own a good quality HVLP set-up, but for my guitars I prefer the TO.

B

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My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.

Brian's guitar is stunning and makes me want to reconsider TruOil. However I have only seen one other that I considered equally stunning, most are pretty mediocre. I did try it on a couple of electrics and my results were less than stunning.

I’ve also tried to. Not great results ... especially on the top


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I've used Truoil on some necks ,Mahogany and maple. Didn't try for any sort of gloss finish. Not the multiple applications that Brian used, maybe ten. It was matte, no pore fill but felt great. I think that is one real plus for TO on necks. I'm using it on current builds, Mahogany ABG and Narra parlor necks (talk about pores on that Narra!!).
The bodies are being sprayed with Seagraves nitro (I've got a small spray room with a Grizzly booth and using a Devilbiss HVLP gun which I would like to upgrade). I've tried KTM9, Belhens and Cardinal lacquers, and like the Seagraves best.

I've used shellac, wiped or brushed on, given two weeks to harden and then wet sanded, with two or three TruOil coats on top. This can look very good. And it only stinks the place out for a couple of days, unlike nitro which chokes me for days!

That's funny you say that about the odor, I would hve said the opposite. I love the smell of lacquer and could sniff it all day. My friend use tru-oil and I hated the smell and it seemed to stink months later.

Different strokes .

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!
That's a reminder for me.

"Alan Carruth, IMO the 12-fret 000 or 14 fret OM size (15" wide lower bout) is god's size for the steel string guitar, especially for fingerstyle. I would also try to get away from scalloped bracing and lean toward 'straight' or 'tapered' bracing. Scalloped emphasizes bass and 'punch', where straight bracing, and especially 'tapered' (sometimes called 'parabolic') leans more toward treble and sustain."

Well I guess the proof is in the pudding. That is a gorgeous finish. Now you have thinking, it's all in the technique and you have it. I'll get some and try it on some cam clamps I made.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!
That's a reminder for me.

"Alan Carruth, IMO the 12-fret 000 or 14 fret OM size (15" wide lower bout) is god's size for the steel string guitar, especially for fingerstyle. I would also try to get away from scalloped bracing and lean toward 'straight' or 'tapered' bracing. Scalloped emphasizes bass and 'punch', where straight bracing, and especially 'tapered' (sometimes called 'parabolic') leans more toward treble and sustain."

Thinking about your thread title, but sidestepping your question about Tru-oil: have you considered the application of Silvertip epoxy as a pore filler, topped with Enduro-Var as the finish, all applied with foam brushes? I have only French polished my guitars up to now, but I have been experimenting with this combination lately, and I think it is the direction I want to go. The photos I see of others’ results are great; I hear high praise of this combination here on the OLF; and most pertinent to your thread title, there is no spraying involved and no nitro, which are both very high on my list of priorities. I work in a walkout basement shop, with no good place to spray anything, and definitely no good place to spray nitro or let it offgas. Just a thought for you to ponder.

That off gassing is very toxic!!!


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I’ve considered this but not put legs on it.
Is the silver tip brand key? I currently use zpoxy.... but I see how different epoxies could cure out and react differently w different finishes


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I know it's toxic, but I love it just the same. I'm just saying, I love the smell, I don't really sniff it all day.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!
That's a reminder for me.

"Alan Carruth, IMO the 12-fret 000 or 14 fret OM size (15" wide lower bout) is god's size for the steel string guitar, especially for fingerstyle. I would also try to get away from scalloped bracing and lean toward 'straight' or 'tapered' bracing. Scalloped emphasizes bass and 'punch', where straight bracing, and especially 'tapered' (sometimes called 'parabolic') leans more toward treble and sustain."

I think the difference between the two types of epoxy will not hurt how Enduro-Var goes on. I think the Silvertip has fewer issues for this particular application (pore filler and making the wood look wet underneath the finish), but I say that from reading the experiences of others, rather than from my own experience. My experiments with Silvertip and Enduro-Var so far make me feel good about how things will go. Get the ratios on the Silvertip right, and it works great. I measure by weight rather than by volume, and that is doing the trick so far.

banjopicks wrote:
" I love the smell of lacquer and could sniff it all day."

DON'T!

I'm told that the least toxic thing in lacquer thinner is toluene. It's toxic in a concentration 1/10 as strong as you can smell. My older brother used to make model airplanes, and use 'dope' (lacquer with banana oil as a plasticizer) to finish them. He got a medical deferment from the draft because his kidneys were in such bad shape, and died young. I used to spray nitro outdoors as you do. Now I can't open a can of lacquer without feeling the effects. So far, so good with the kidneys, though.

I know that nitro is the industry standard, but IMO it's a snare. Yes, it goes on nicely (once you have the skill), buffs out great, and is reasonably hard. However, it's also chemically unstable, breaking down over time. As it does it releases oxides of nitrogen that react with water vapor to produce nitric acid, which attack other things in the environment. Museum conservators consider it (and cellulose acetate, used in bindings) 'toxic' to their collections, and have to isolate it. I could go on, and frequently do. At length. Nitro is a bad idea who's time should have passed long since, and spraying it without proper protection is asking for trouble.

The beauty of solvent based finishes is that once they kill enough brain cells the smell doesn't bother you anymore.

Amen.

There's always someone trying to pull me away from lacquer. With good reason. I will keep an open mind to other finishes but my only experience so far was bad. I used EM6000 that's touted to be fantastic on this forum. Well not for me. I couldn't stop the craters after many attempts and gave up and sprayed lacquer. My favorite alternative was shellac. I loved the way it went on and it looked great! I guess I didn't let it cure enough and it developed case rash. Rather than just fix it I removed it and sprayed lacquer.

I haven't tried enduro var or tru-oil so one of those will be my next attempt. Wait there's another one that folks seem to like, Crystalac. I'm glad I have some time before I begin.

_________________
Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!
That's a reminder for me.

"Alan Carruth, IMO the 12-fret 000 or 14 fret OM size (15" wide lower bout) is god's size for the steel string guitar, especially for fingerstyle. I would also try to get away from scalloped bracing and lean toward 'straight' or 'tapered' bracing. Scalloped emphasizes bass and 'punch', where straight bracing, and especially 'tapered' (sometimes called 'parabolic') leans more toward treble and sustain."

A friend of mine says that whenever there are a lot of different ways to do something, it's a sign either that everything works, or nothing does. There is no 'perfect' finish. All you can do is pick the one that does what you need and has drawbacks you can live with. In the long run, nitro fulfills no need, and has unacceptable drawbacks,IMO. Shellac is a very nice finish, but not hard and durable enough for customers who have become used to UV cure polyester and the like. I've had enough bad experiences with water born finishes that I stay away from them. Besides, they don't look good to me. As an individual maker who does his own finish I have pretty much settled on oil-resin varnish. There are issues with those as well but those can be worked around. The best ones can be as hard as nitro, or harder, more flexible, go on thinner, and have a 'depth in their appearance that nothing else matches. YMMV

Alan, can you recommend a specific oil-resin varnish that you like?

Alan, do you spray the varnish or brush it.