Official Luthiers Forum!

The Calibre IV thread got me thinking about the topic of economy in gearing up for building and/or repair, suggesting this new thread to avoid detracting from Mr. Breakstone's discussion. To restate the question posed in the subject line:

Where does it make sense to economize in terms of tools, infrastructure (e.g., jigs, fixtures, shop environmental controls, etc.), and supplies, and where is the temptation to economize likely to bite one in the fundament?

Time is a place to not economize! Trying to cut time will lead to mistakes and problems beyond what would have been otherwise.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Yuppers. If you think you haven't got time to do it right the first time, you will be forced to make time to do it right the second time. And time is money - spend it properly.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

An old Stanley plane can shave wood just as good as an $800 hand made plane so that's a good place to start. You don't need boutique tools to make boutique guitars but you do need sharpening skills which brings up another point. A good education is an investment in itself and also a shortcut to a lot of things. Don't be tempted to cut corners on your health. Even a hobbyist needs dust collection for example.

Knowing your skills helps too. As an example, I won't even waste my time trying to cut a torch inlay from abalone blanks, I have tried such things and simply do not have the skills to pull it off. And you can get one from DePaule for like 50 bucks or something. Kerfed lining is another example, sure I can cut them myself but then I can just buy one and be done with it. Same might go for slotting your own fretboards and things like that.

I think you need to figure all this out on your own based on what you know, where you want to go, how many guitars you produce in a year and so on. Jigging up a big shop to make everything makes sense when you are going to produce 40 guitars a year, otherwise it might be better to outsource the simple things.

As for time... Every time I try to cut it something bad happens. But you can still find ways to reduce time. Like if you are making a neck, why not make two or three? Once you have your work station set up for any given task may as well make use of it. That sort of thing.

1. Protect your health. Good dust collection was by far the biggest investment I made in my shop when I decided to get serious about guitar making, the other cool tools came later. Well worth it, wish I had done it many years ago.
2. Pay attention to humidity and figure out how to do critical operations such as bracing and closing the box in the proper humidity range.
3. Magnification is your friend, get something like an Optivisor or at least some reading glasses for detail work. If it looks ok under magnification then it will usually look really good to the naked eye.
4. Decent measuring tools are a must. A few steel rulers are not expensive but are super useful, I like 6" and 18". Flexible plastic rulers for measuring around curved parts are also cheap and nice to have. Finally, a decent set of calipers is a must, I spent the extra $$ for a Mitutoyo and I use mine constantly.
5. Keep in mind that guitars are mostly just a bunch of wood parts, specialized luthier tools are generally not needed, they just save time and/or make tasks easier. Take your time when you start and only buy tools as you really need them. Used tools are all over if you look for them.
6. Be patient with the process and don't try to rush, this has been emphasized by most folks for a reason. I have found that I can do many seemingly difficult tasks reasonably well the first time by going very slow, i.e. cut a little and check it, cut a little more, check it again, and so on until you get where you need to be. Speed will come with practice and you'll also figure out which tools you really need.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I agree that the most important place to spend money for quality equipment is in maintaining the proper and least toxic environment for building. Dust collection and humidity/temp control.

I would also propose that if one is serious about this business spending the money to take a well established and reputable building course could possibly be the best investment you could ever make to shave years off your learning curve and avoid many costly mistakes. A good course will not only help your building skills but will also help enormously with time proven ideas for shop setup and basic tooling.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

All of the above.

Don't try to economize on anything related to finish prep or finishing materials. Some cut corners might not bite you for months, but they could sure bite hard.

I've been sorry for every cheap power tool purchase I ever made, every one. I'm still learning.

Sharpening, indeed. You can make the cheapest edge tool work if you know how to put a good edge on it, even if it needs resharpening often. Since I built my first instruments 40 years ago, I'm still working on my sharpening chops. Scary sharp is pretty economical up front, but not in the long run, and can get pretty good results.

edit: If you don't intend to go into production, you can economize on space. It's nice to have a lot, but 200 sq ft works for me. I've seen smaller shops.

_________________
formerly known around here as burbank
_________________

http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I think buying used tools is a good way to be frugal. This goes for general woodworking as well as the guitar-specific stuff we often buy. A decent percentage of my tools are used. I just keep my eyes open for deals.

I agree that buying cheap power tools is frustrating. But so is having to save your money before getting basics like a drill press or a band saw. In the beginning, I owned the smaller, cheaper varieties of those machines, and I far prefer my larger, higher quality versions I own now. But if I had to wait to buy the better tools, I would have missed out on years of building. There is something to be said for the inevitability of climbing the quality ladder regarding tools, a little bit at a time. Maybe with knowledge then of what we know now, we would have bought the best quality up front. But we might not have bought anything at all if we were faced with that kind of cost all at once.

I've not regretted the $10 I put into my Netti Pot a single time, and it didn't even require a capital campaign.



To this day I think running into my $300 Performax 10-20 as a woodworker's swap meet was sign enough that my interest in this hobby was providential.

I've been through a number of binding jigs, but I'm happy I have. I didn't take too much of a loss moving from jig to jig, and I was able to end up with a solution that works well for me and makes getting good results easier. I'll say the same for my Bishop-Cochrane and Elevate circle cutting jigs. The fineness of adjustment on both made the rosette procedure much easier for me.

Don't cut corners on tuners. I've regretted every set of "lower cost alternative" tuners.

_________________
Tony Thatcher
Bozeman, Montana

A builder can save some money on cases, without sacrificing quality, by building guitars that fit well in stock cases, instead of building to some unique shape that needs a custom case.

A side frugality note on cases. I am sure that I would love owning one of those really nice cases that costs $500 or more, the same way that I am sure I would love owning a BMW Z4 Roadster: as long as I don't have to pay for it, it would be great, but if I have to pay for it, I'm going with something more practical.

I schlep my guitars all over the place by car. I never fly with them. If I flew, I would get a serious case. But for driving around, I have never, ever felt the need to have a $500 case protect my guitar. Any peril that I reasonably could encounter is dealt with by a $100 stock hardshell case. Not a case-related scratch in nearly 50 years of using stock hardshell cases.

If I am selling for $5,000 or more, sure; include a fancy case. If I am just building my own, or giving them away? $100 will protect it well enough.

Whether you mix it yourself or buy it
Don't use old glue.
I always mix a new batch of hide glue if I am putting on a bridge
DAMHIK

As difficult as it may be to resist the urge try as you may to avoid using highly figured and often expensive, rare, exotic woods on early builds.

There are tons of guitars that have been built out of the higher priced tone woods when the builder has not yet mastered even the very most basic things such as neck angle. I'll add that these top shelf tonewoods can be more difficult to successfully use too with highly figured Mahogany and bending for sides coming to mind.

I know this is not exactly what the Woodie may have been looking for but when I consider my own mistakes when I was a new builder this was one of them, buying the $500 back and side sets or tops for early guitars.

It's particularly timely in my view to consider not wasting natural resources as it's in the news about the fires in the Amazon.

This is some really fascinating stuff! I expected more of a shopping guide (e.g., buy this, not that), but as usual, the OLF does not disappoint with regard to members engaging in a bit of heavy thinking when it will help others.

On the Amazon Basin fires: a useful site for data junkies (i.e., those that prefer their facts uncooked and without the infotainment industry's heavy-handed seasoning) is the Global Fire Data site, where an interactive dashboard presents yearly cumulative fire count, cumulative affected acreage, and cumulative estimated emissions for each region of the Amazon basin based on NASA's MODIS and VIIRS satellite-derived data for 2003 to present.

http://www.globalfiredata.org/forecast.html

Hey Hesh, when I was starting out I called Walter Lipton at Euphonon to order some wood. The first thing he said was “how many have you built?”. I think it was around 10.

His reply was “I can’t sell you the good stuff yet”

Looking back it was excellent advice.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Terence, I haven't heard anything from Euphonon for many years. Are they still in business?

I have bought a lot of wood from Walter over the years but the last order was some neck blanks about a year ago. I got the impression he was winding down slightly but I need some stuff and will be calling him soon. I will let you know.
His Mahogany for necks and bodies are great.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Some great advice already in this thread. My views are almost 100% from a repair standpoint instead of building but here's some thoughts.

1. Learn to dig deep into eBay. You'd be amazed how good of a deal you can find on things from clamps to planes to vises. Follow some good sellers who have a good reputation and always be thinking about what tools would make your life easier.
A good example of a way to save money with eBay is clamps. I make it a habit to consistently search for clamps on eBay. Lots of the great old makers (Pony, Jorgensen, Brinks and Cotton etc...) can be had for not alot of money and end up cheaper all said and done than buying new chinesium clamps.

2. Make your own tools. This saves so much time and effort and eliminates you needing to buy specialty tools. Sometimes these tools you make end up being way more useful than tools you can purchase.

3. When buying chemicals like acetone/mineral spirits. Always buy from your local hardware store rather than a specialty shop.

4. Buy fewer, higher quality tools rather than cheap ones you continually replace or fight with. This is especially true with power tools.

5. Keep some scrap aluminum stock around. 1/8 and 1/4 can be used to make all sorts of cauls/jigs even with just some basic hand working metal tools. Also 1/2 acrylic stock is amazing for making clamping cauls/guards.

I economized on drill bits. Learning how to regrind drill bit helps.

I found a store that sells old milling cutters and drill bits, by the pound for pennies on the dollar. I would go there with a digital caliper and find the size I want. All of those drill bits are dull beyond use and you have to grind it to make it usable but I've been able to have brad point bits cheap by making my own. You won't find forestner bits there however, these are used in machine shops and forestner bits won't drill metal. You can probably get really large end mills and regrind them as large drill bits, but the shank will have to be somehow reduced for you to use it in a chuck. One of these days I might just do that with a rotary table and a bench grinder.

I don't really keep aluminum stock around but maybe I should, but I do keep scraps around. I can always ask my neighbor (he makes motorcycle parts with his CNC) for them.

Plexiglass sheets are very useful especially in conjunction with a laser.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

- If you build a lot of instruments and there's the opportunity available near you for outsourcing your spray finishes, I think it can make a of sense to consider offloading this part of the build process. You may be able to save a lot of time - and potentially money - versus tooling-up and skilling-up to spray and buff. In addition to gear, the skill required to do consistent, quality work should not be underestimated. I can, and do, spray high gloss finishes but there's no one near me offering contract spray finishing who wants anything to do with musical instruments; if there was I would likely have outsourced instead of tooling up to do it myself.

- An investment in the gear needed for resawing backs and sides could end up saving significant dollars in the long run, if you build a lot of instruments and want to use the high-dollar species. Small-shop resawing on smaller footprint bandsaws seems more accessible now than it has in the past. Maybe this is just my perception though. This only really applies if you can source quality roughsawn boards locally to you.

- Quality soundboards, expertly processed, seem to be available at such a fair price from vendors (such as forum sponsor Alaska Specialty Woods) that it doesn't seem that it would ever make much financial sense to resaw your own from a billet.

For specific tools and supplies:

- There are decent-quality Safe-t-planer knockoffs that can do a wide range of common lutherie tasks for a relatively cheap investment. Planing backs and sides, fretboard blanks, thinning headstocks, tapering neck blanks. If you are power-tool-inclined, it could save you from having to buy larger machines, at least for a while. A couple of the cheap old stanley handplane jfmckenna mentioned above can also do most of these tasks for minimal investment of funds.

- Boutique chisels are gorgeous. But you can get great results out of much cheaper chisels, assuming you have the sharpening chops.

- Ditto for sexy boutique backsaws vs old yard-sale Disstons assuming you know how to sharpen them.

- I've never found a really good, cheap rasp. The French Auriou rasps really do seem to me to be next-level quality. Haven't tried Liogier but they look great too.

- I've owned OK cheaper random orbital sanders, but none that truly performed as well as the more expensive offerings from companies like Festool or Mirka. I think I've easily spent the price of a quality sander on a succession of cheaper ones that were middling at best in performance. I should have just bit the bullet and bought a Festool in the first place.

Sandpaper:
- The first time I tried quality industrial sandpaper was a revelation that had me cursing myself for ever using cheap homecenter sandpaper. Quality sandpaper is money well spent.

Strings:
- Never skimp on strings. The first time you chase an intonation issue for a couple of hours that was actually caused by poor quality control at the budget string factory will erase any savings you may think you've made.
- You can usually find quality name-brand strings in bulk for a significant discount vs buying individually-packaged single sets retail. Most luthiers go through enough strings that it makes sense to bulk-buy common gauges.
- But don't bulk-buy loose strings unless you have the ability to store said strings in such a way that they won't corrode from environmental moisture before you get around to using them. DAMHIK.



Terrence I agree absolutely; I initially 'self-taught' (hate that term) via books and forums and built several before I went and took a course with a skilled maker. My build process was streamlined considerably, a host of new skills were developed and I left with a nice instrument and a notebook crammed full of innovative jig, tooling, process and business ideas. You end up with the benefit of a lifetime of your teacher's hard-won experience, and the amount most courses cost is so small in relative terms. It's invaluable, and certainly more worthwhile than basically any tool you might buy with the same money. In fact, it is probably a saving in the long run in terms of helping you know where to invest when setting up a workshop.

I thought about going to the UK to study luthiery, it's actually about 2 years. I wasn't accepted however.

In Taiwan I feel I'm better off just learning on my own, maybe watch Robbie O Brien's online course (which from what I heard is quite decent). The luthiery programs I have seen in Taiwan (offered by individual luthiers who may have gone to Robert Venn's or some other school) doesn't really impress me. Plus I can always ask them for tips, especially Taiwan specific ones (such as how to deal with humidity).

For random orbital sanders, I don't know why but I found air sander to be much better quality for the money (meaning even a cheap air sander outperforms a good electric one by miles). The air sander I use is very aggressive compared to the electric ones I have. I can only use the air sander during the day unfortunately because my shop air comes from the neighboring CNC shop. He shuts it off when he leaves since that compressor has internal leaks meaning if he doesn't shut it off, it will run nonstop all night.

For me the only benefit of a good chisel is the steel is harder meaning you don't have to sharpen as often. But I can turn any piece of steel sharp enough to cut something so no point buying expensive chisels. I think learning how to sharpen will save you more money than buying expensive boutique chisels, but even those boutique chisels have to be sharpened some day, not knowing how to sharpen means even if you could spend 300 dollars for a single chisel, you are still not going to be productive. I have on occasion just use my mill and a cup wheel to grind a precise bevel into the chisel, finish it off with a 4000 water stone, then I have a piece of wood handy with green compound rubbed all over it. When I need to carve something, I just strop it a bit. Gets the chisel very sharp. It doesn't stay scary sharp forever though but I can just go strop it again to maintain the sharpness.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Thanks for the Link Woodie.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

+1 for don't skimp on sandpaper. Also, don't try to use the same piece after it has died. I learned I was bad about that while working for a few days in Brian Howard's shop. I was using paper well past it being effective.

_________________
Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

I have bought Martin "reject" ebony fretboards. They are slotted, tapered and radiused. Some of them are drilled for dot inlays They have a couple of minor defects that are easily repaired in a few minutes. I buy them fo $10 each. They would normally cost at least $70 with all that work done to them.....

concerning sandpaper - I took a tour of the nearby Paul Reid Smith shop. I watched a tech adjust neck sets in about 60 seconds on electric guitars. He plastered down a piece of self-stick gold paper on a flat board, dragged the neck over the sandpaper a few times, checked the fit, repeated til it fit, pulled up the sandpaper, replaced it and moved on to the next one.

The only reason I could think for replacing the sandpaper so frequently was that even a couple of drags over the surface changes the paper enough that it threw off his system. One neck he only dragged it one time to get the fit he wanted, but still replaced the paper.

Struck me how important fresh paper can be.

Ed