Official Luthiers Forum!

Repair people will understand the subject of the post, and likely have had one or two customers they have fired. I am not addressing the demanding customer, but rather the irrational ones that chew through your time and patience with abandon. In the three cases I am personally aware of, the warning signs were abundantly evident in retrospect, but I would like to solicit the broader group's input and experience.

I should mention that in firing the customer, a repair person is often walking away from the instrument and customer by zeroing out the tab and suggesting that they do business elsewhere (while suggesting dispatch in exiting the shop re: the potential for posterior connection with a swiftly moving door).

So... any comments on signs/portents?

Haven’t had that experience with instrument repair, but definitely a few when I was doing custom kitchens/woodworking. The one that stands out i never made it past the design phase.After the second revision they wanted for me to come up with 2 more options with pricing being there driving motive. I gathered up all the design work I had done off there kitchen table, including my previous work which I had previously left with them walked out and told them to give me a call when they decided what they wanted
They had the nerve to call my and ask for my designs back that I hadn’t charged them for. That didnt happen

I found the best way was to simply tell them I didn't like them, and I don't work on stuff for people I don't like. If they argue or need further motivation I commence to loudly telling them to GTFO until they leave. For me, the best method is not to equivocate.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I'm cautious with customers being overly concerned about cost. I understand that -- money is limited. But complex repairs don't often allow for a high level of providing "estimate" guarantees.

I've done some work for "poor" artists where I didn't make any money to speak of and the $$ was a gesture more than a payment. I like to promote music. Some come back and expect it on more complex projects and act like I'm trying to rip them off, I'm usually too busy to take on new work when that happens. In one instance, a guy admitted his brother was a guitar builder! Why he was in my shop and not his was enough for me to be too busy then too.

I was getting an estimate on some home roof repairs. The contractor played one of my guitars and wanted one and asked what it would cost to build one. I thought there might be a trade in the works and asked what he charged for his labor. It was in his job bid and being good at math on the fly said we could trade labor for labor and at $60/hr..... Funny that didn't sound good to him. I thought a guitar builder should at least command the wage of a roofer! I was smart enough to close the door on that project.

Your ears are your best defense against a bad deal. But you have to listen well and at least look for clues.

Thankfully, most customers are great.

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Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

I finished ironing out the details of a guitar in detail with a potential customer after many phone conversations and when I asked for the deposit he tried to renegotiate the agreed upon price...That didn't sit well with me and I simply told him I didn't want to work for him and ended the conversation.....

Different business, but similar “bad client” dynamics: I find that if we provide the potential client a realistic (or on the high end) estimate, in writing, along with a realistic (or on the high end) warning of how long it will take, and the level of uncertainty regarding outcome, that tends to weed out the bad clients. The ones who stick around will probably be OK. The ones who leave, or want to negotiate, are the ones you don’t want.

Good input - excessive cost sensitivity is a definite sign that the customer cannot afford the work. Personality mismatch comes into play as well... I recall a customer the boys had in that made me feel very uncomfortable.

The sort of behavior I've seen is the irrational response which some customers have to their inability to find a handy Time Machine to undo the damage they/their family member (s) have done to their instrument and at a cost that they could afford.

- I've seen a client accuse the repair person of surreptitiously swapping out the A grade WRC top for another A grade WRC top on her student-level German-made classical guitar (and then accuse the repair person of swapping the back/side set... mediocre EIR).

- The second situation I discussed with another repair person was a gentleman that came close to destroying his 1980's plywood back & side, solid spruce top Korean-made dreadnaught in an attempt at DIY repair (these were the days of the lawsuit Asian guitars and '... by Martin')... a back replacement was done for 4x the as-presented value of the instrument, but the customer just could not get by the witness lines left on a finish repair to a superficial scratch left by a previous repair shop's neck reset (despite being invisible from more than an inch or two eye distance).

Both incidents eventually led to the repair people involved walking away from the well-repaired guitar and firing the customer, with losses in time, sunk cost of materials, and the inevitable anxiety that close approaches to crazy produces in the clinically sane. In terms of signs, the barely suppressed rage directed towards her spouse on the part of the first instrument's owner at time of drop-off would likely have been a no-go had this been my decision, while the second incident highlights the role which problematic self-repair attempts might play in an owner's fantasy of turning back the hands of time to undo his own extraordinarily poor judgement and lack of skill. An unreasonable desire for a do-over on the part of the client can drag repair people into the role of both psychotherapist and possible target... so I suppose this ends up being a discussion about the art of differentiating between the truly crazy client and the usual, run-of-the-mill semi-sane musician/instrument owner.

My biggest problem has been a guy who wants me to walk him through repairs on his own guitars, use my tools and feels entitled to my time without offering to compensate me. I was a nice guy a couple of times and that was a mistake. I fired him.

Otherwise not too bad. I do try to avoid commissions if possible unless I know the person reasonably well preferring to sell off the wall in a good guitar shop, Willies American Guitars in St Paul MN.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I don't run a standard repair shop so I don't have to worry about folks just walking in. Customers are referred to me by existing customers and are almost all serious musicians. For casual inquiries I'll just tell them I'm semi retired and refer them to a local repair shop that a friend of mine runs that does good work. Makes life easier.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Only "problem" I've ever had was a guy who wanted a 1 day fretwork "course" for fret levelling/crowning etc. doing his own guitars.
I quoted him what I thought was a very reasonable price at $300 and actually never heard from him again.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

That was quite reasonable.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Back in the 80's I had a guy come in and wanted me to teach him how to build a guitar... in an hour. I laughed the guy out of the shop. My apprentice who witnessed the incident made the little circular "crazy" motion with his finger at his head, and we both had a chuckle. If you don't work with the general public on a daily basis you can't appreciate the nutty ideas floating around out there. I keep saying I should write a book.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I would buy it.....

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Measure Twice,

Karl Borum

How to Recognize a Customer You'll Eventually Have to Fire?

The one who calls and or emails you 20 TIMES a day!

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com