Official Luthiers Forum!

I've posted these pics elsewhere in the Forum following a discussion that was rather heated. I do NOT mean to stoke the fires; this guy's guitars sound good but really, FP on the INSIDE?
What do you think?
Dave

Yes, me have seen before.

Me try not to think.

Would me do a finish like that....NO!...but is sure nice to look at.

thanks for posting it.

Me tried to goggle as you suggested... to see more, but no luck.

One is enough me guess.


blessings
the
Pamda

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There is a luthier on youtube that polishes the inside. If I remember correctly he said most people seal the outside of guitars but not the inside, he seals both becuase he feels it is better to protect the wood and it looks pretty.

I could see this helping with minimizing the effects of humidity changes to some extent.

It's nice to look at, but I wouldn't think it is by any means necessary since the majority of guitars out there don't have finish on the inside.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

I think that rocks! No matter what it does or doesn't do for tone or stability. Too cool!

I know reaching into an old guitar and feeling it all rough and sandpapery in there and like the dust is just all stuck in the texture doesn't feel good

Peace,
Sanaka

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...

I'm assuming that you finish it after it is braced... That looks like it would be quite a chore to french polish the inside like that with the braces there. Does look really sweet though.

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Chansen / C hansen / C. Hansen / Christian Hansen - not a handle.

Christian

I've seen similar. I can't remember the builder's name off the top of my head but there is a guy who does extensive inlay inside his guitars as well.

I wouldn't do it, but to each their own. If he likes it that way or his customers care what the inside of the box looks like then I guess it's worth doing.

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Hey Padma, why does this remind me of the old saying about puting lipstick on a pig?

Mike

PS: I would never do that to the insides. I love sticking my nose inside the box and knowing whence came the wood.

I believe the person I saw do it. Taped off the area for the braces. Applied the finish and then glued the braces down.

I believe this is the video I saw. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=308bh3DHSzY He does a french polish on the inside.

here ya go,

teran guitars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=308bh3DH ... L&index=48

i saw his instruments at cheltenham guitar show a while back and i must they sounded very good and the fit and finish was supurb.
personaly i cant see that it would effect the tone in any way whatsoever but but the added peace of mind makes it worth while.
especialy if you are shipping ypour guitars abroad like many uk luthiers are.
the humidity changes in transit can be phenomal and i can see how have all end grain sealed (bound sound hole etc) all serfices sealed in some way would guard against any any drastic changes in the wood

also even if it does effect the tone if you still get the desired result upon comletion of the guitar or you know how to compansate for it then what harm can it do.
joel.

That's a bit much...shiny though.

I am not so sure the application method was FP IF it was then I assume all was finish prior to bracing and then the scraped off where the bracing was going. it would be very difficult to keep the muneca from transferring shellac to the braces and even more difficult glazing in all those corners. It can be done but a lot of labor would have used. However it was applied and however much time was involved he does a nice job.

Now the question is did it add to sonic quality of the instrument. My opinion is that it probably detracted rather than added but it sure is an artful statement.

I don't want to start the whole discussion again since the "...this sounds better than this..." debate is so subjective, but when I see this I have to ask myself, why? Personally, I would not do this to any of my guitars as I don't see the point. Pretty, yes, but in the end, the real point of the guitar is to make music...which I think gets lost sometimes in these quests for perfection.

My two cents...which is about all it's worth.

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Jamie M

I wish my living room looked that nice!

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I like the look, but I don't believe a guitar is really a guitar until it has some dust and a few ashes inside it........LOL...HNY Everyone!

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John Nowicki

I will bet there are some DARN good reasons why the insides are not finished, or the masters of the past would have done it. No, this is another case of someone looking for a "discovery" that will give them the "big break". Like folks who "invent" braceless bodies.

Whether you like it or not, wood needs to breathe for it act "naturally". Whether or not humidity can get to the wood, temperature will. And without the buffering effect of humidity, my guess is temperature extremes will cause unexpected cracks. Cabinet makers use floating door panels. Why not just seal everything and avoid the added complexity? My guess is because you can't fool Mother Nature.

Bridge builders use expansion joints to handle temperature fluxuations. You cannot build a large steel bridge without them. Here, humidity matters not (other than in the area of heat dissipation). But natural cellulose materials have cells that can hold moisture. Each little cell filled with some minute amount of moisture will act like a spring and retain some flexability due to the moisture.

Does this not make sense? It's not about what LOOKS good, it's about what performs well.

Mike

I like it.
I will never do that.
I don't think it is a bad idea.
I just don't want to do that.

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It isn't as polished as that, but Jose Oribe finishes the inside of his guitars. His looks more or less like a sealing coat of lacquer inside. I am not sure if he still does it, but when I visited his shop in the early 80's, it was his standard practice. My memory is fuzzy, but I recall him saying he did it because it improved the sound in some way, though he didn't elaborate. I am pretty sure that the finish he used was limited to the back and sides of the instrument and not on the top. I haven't really looked, but when I felt the top braces inside, they felt "au naturel". I have an Oribe of that vintage (Brazilian and Redwood) that seems to have survived without cracks, and though I have no way of knowing how the inside finish afects the sound, it is a fine concert level instrument. I did see one or two other guitars by well known makers when I was at Guitar Salon in Santa Monica that had some kind of a finish on the inside, but I don't recall who made them at this point. Interesting topic...

Wow. He has a lot of free time.

That would make repairs much harder, especially on the inside of a top.

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John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 2 crazy dachshunds

The last time i saw a guitar that looked like that, it was plastic.....They both probably sound the same too!

I have no problems with guitars with finished insides. Hell piano are finished inside and out with varnish including the soundboards. I don't know if i would have the patience to do a French polish though. i would think a sprayed shellac would be sufficient.

I have the same thought on guitars that use epoxy as pore filler and backs and sides that are CA flooded.

Mike, with all due respect, I think you're kind of going out on a limb here. You mention about the cabinet makers and the floating door panels - they do seal everything for the reason you mention "you can't fool Mother Nature" but, what would happen if they only sealed one side?

As far as I know, it's practically impossible to seal moisture out of wood. Just about every practical finish will allow moisture to pass, just at faster and slower rates depending on the finish and the film thickness. By finishing only one side, we're creating a very un-natural situation where one side of the wood can "breath" very well and the other can't. What does that do in terms of internal stresses?

Here's an experiment for you: Next time you have a top with a couple extra inches of length cut off a strip (so that the long part is cross grain) and finish one side. Watch what happens as humidity fluctuates.

I wrote this in another thread but I'll recount this here: The tops on my banduras start out 24" wide. I was working on one and had done some sanding or inlay or whatever on the front of the top and was ready to begin bracing. I put a washcoat of shellac on the front to keep it cleaner and this had the side effect of seemingly bringing the top alive with humidity changes. The thing would potato chip if you looked at it wrong. I finally put a wash coat on the inside of the top as well which immediately calmed things down. Since I did that, I decided to put a wash coat on the entire inside.

Fast forward a year and a half: I'm at a summer music camp in the Alleghenies and the humidity is around 1,000,000%. My newest instrument which I didn't finish on the inside is suffering badly: back looks like a roller coaster and the top looks like a pair of corduroys. The instrument with the finish on the inside: front is corduroyed and the back is fine.

I'll be putting a thin washcoat or two of shellac in all my instruments in the future.

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As John Lewis stated, this would make future repairs much more difficult. That was the consensus of most of the pros when this was discussed a couple of years ago. Andy is also correct about the movement of moisture. This technique would slow down that movement (and maybe that's a good thing) but it won't stop moisture movement into and out of the wood. Having said that, Robert Benedetto demonstrates in his DVD series painting a light coat of shellac inside his guitars before gluing the plates on, and he is certainly a respected builder. I think most don't because of the repair issue and because they simply feel it isn't worth it. I must admit that it looks stunning.