Official Luthiers Forum!

So do u use your diamond stones as a finishing stone? I have never been impressed by the finished edge off any diamonds no matter how fine. But Im a stone geek too. I do love my diamonds too though just not for finishing up.

Yes, I finish up straight off the green "stone". It doesn't give a total mirror finish final bevel, but it's pretty shiny. I taper off the pressure over the last few strokes and that seems to do the trick. I've done the mirror finish thing and found no great advantage to it. Years ago, when I was building boats, straight off a two sided India oil stone seemed plenty good enough, but that seems rough as, now!

The best overall improvement in edge life I got was when I moved from honing a typical bevel down plane iron at 30 degrees to 35 degrees. I should try 40 degrees and see if there's still enough clearance angle!

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

Huh, I bought one of the extra-extra fine stones, and even that's still a pretty rough surface. Maybe I just need to break it in more? I'll probably just sell it though, since I don't use it much.

I use an extra-extra coarse dia-sharp for flattening the back of new blades, and quickly renewing the primary bevel after my secondary bevel starts getting too big. One of the best tools I've ever bought. Makes a great sanding block for wood, too Then extra fine (green) to smooth out the rough scratch marks, then do the secondary bevel and back polishing on the diamond lapping films from Lee Valley. Pretty quick route to a mirror shine, although I can still see some very fine scratch marks in it. I want to try an 8000x waterstone sometime and see if it's any smoother and/or faster. The XXC diamond stone should make quick work of flattening it when it gets worn.

Sometimes I do a round on the XXF stone for the backs of blades before going to the lapping film, but it's not really necessary.

Certainly my green "stone" is nowhere near as aggressive as it was when new. It settled down after maybe 6 months and doesn't seem to have changed a whole lot since. It's still pretty fast, though.
I have a 8000 water stone. You can get the mirror shine alright, but it doesn't seem to do that much for performance.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

I used an 8,000 waterstone for the last 10 years or so. Previous to that I used Oil stones with a fine Arkansas and strop. I've now gone back to the Oil stones. The waterstone certainly worked but the speed at which they dish can get a bit tiring.

I have been using the XXF DMT for final honing for 3/4 years now, and, as DMT say, it takes time and use to wear in.
It doesn't seem to go to an absolute mirror finish (slight scratches visible), but easily good enough for sub-thou shavings, cuts real quick, no flattening required, and economical in the long run.
I will admit to hastened the initial break-in by lapping a SS block lightly over the DMT for 5/10 minutes.
Wouldn't be without it.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Why not use the Scary Sharp System? Just a piece of plate glass, or something equally hard and flat, and some abrasives sheets. No stone flattening and it is cheap.
http://www.workshopheaven.com/library/W ... ctions.pdf

Scary sharp is OK but in the long run it starts to get expensive in comparison to other methods. My Arkansas stone is near 35 years old and I'll probably get another 100 years out of it.

Yep. Got a fine Arkansas, too. Gives a finish and performance very similar to what I get off the green DMT, but the DMT is a good bit faster. Never tried scary sharp. Always seemed like too much messing around. Probably means I should get better organised!

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

Hmmm....... I have a 600/red & 1200/green DMT for the initial flattening/hone. Then go to my Norton water stones, 1000, 4000, & 8000.

As long as I'm careful not to get a nick in the edge about two minutes on the 8000 and your off to the races, (needs a good stropping) Its a royal PITA to get your initial flattening and honing, but relatively easy to maintain a great edge. My dad has been a sharp tool fiend, for years and has every kind of Arkansas oil stone made and he has gone to the water stones for chisels and planes.

This has been a timely thread for me, and it has given me lots to think about. My sharpening skills are middling at best - I can do an OK job on chisels, but I need to get a much better edge on my plane irons. I've signed-up for a Lee Valley sharpening class next month, so I'm hoping that it will be a good first step in the right direction.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

^^^^^ This. I can get a knife or straight razor to shave very comfortably with; I can get a chisel to be servicable, but my plane iron sharpening is pretty dismal. I have water stones for straights and use them for chisels and plane irons as well. I need to find a class or get some hands-on training!

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"Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy." - Winston Churchill

I'd been using Todd's system with pretty good results consistently for about four years.



But a few weeks ago, my wife and I went to a coffee shop for a few hours during spring break. While she annihilated The Hunger Games, I flipped through Somogyi's, Making the Responsive Guitar. The Double Bevel Sharpening system he recommends in the first or second chapter really intrigued me. After watching Brian's video on it, I was even more interested. It looked like it would help me solve the issue of lapping the back of the blades, which for whatever reason, never quite worked out for me. There was always a scratch or two I couldn't get rid of.



So I've just changed over to this system. Too soon to really comment on it yet, but I like it so far. Speed's about the same. Setup area is obviously a little larger. I feel like the larger honing guide might distribute my pressure a little more evenly across the blade.

And I'm sold on using the DMT's for the initial grits. I have extra extra course (125 grit) for changing bevels, course (325 grit) and extra fine (1200 grit) for the initial hone, and polish at 8000 with a whetstone.

Just took a sub-thousandth shaving for the first time . . . ever. Very cool! The feel of the surface is unbelievable.

Wow, this thread really took off when we started talking about sharpening. IMO this is the biggest challenge for some when it comes to sharpening, too many different methods, sharpening mediums, and opinions for beginners to really get a solid edge confidently. The most important advise I can give about sharpening is find a system, learn it, and stick with it for a while. Before giving up on any system I highly reccomend really putting it to use. They all work, some more efficient than others but still can produce an edge capable of fine woodworking.

Now on to my opinions on media and methods. My sharpening right now is designed around efficiency. I want to woodwork not grind tool steel over and over. With that said, I'm actually a bit of a stone (mostly waterstones) geek. But my method for efficiency right now is grind a primary bevel on a 6" high speed bench grinder. Increase to a secondary micro-bevel with a cheap eclipse style honing guide on Sigma Ceramic waterstones. I use a jig with blocks of wood set at certain distances to create a few different angles for my micro bevel. I register the blade and honing guide on the jig to get the right projection for the angle I want. The smaller the secondary bevel is the quicker the sharpening session. Mostly I use a 1000 grit and 16000 Sigma waterstone. Once the secondary gets a little larger I will go with 1000-6000-16000. My most popular diamond stone in my shop is the DMT X-coarse 10 inch and only touches waterstones to flatten them. I use the waterstones as splash and go, no soaking even though they do get a little nicer to use with a short soak. But they are not stones you just leave in the water. They really are no messier than Diamond stones or any other method and I just can't buy that excuse as a reason not to use the new breed of waterstones. They cut fast and produce an edge like I can't get off of any other media. But then again I don't enjoy using them as much as I do some of my natural waterstones and Arkansas oil stones from Dan's Whetstones. I have some Japanese blades that don't touch wood until it is finished up on a Natural Nakayama stone.

Opinions aside, select a method and run with it and then decide if you want to look elsewhere. But give the original method some time to learn its quirks.

Here's a little story, more about blade quality rather than sharpening, but it surprised me, nonetheless.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au

That is impressive Trevor. I have also used my planes for aluminum and some brass and they work very well on it. As long as I remember to use my A2 blades on these materials it usually causes very little wear. I have yet to try out Veritas' new PMV11 on any materials as demanding. I have been impressed with the PMV11 in hardwoods though. I use one of their PMV11 blades in my LA Jack for shooting end grain and sharpen this blade about a 1/3 as much as the A2 blade. I also am able to get a slightly sharper edge on the PMV11.

I was surprised to hear only ~20% improvement for HSS over A2. You probably know about these tests... http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/bladetest.html
which found M2 was about 2x better than A2 for wear. Any idea why the difference? Maybe the 3M Microfinishing abrasives are needed to put an ideal edge on HSS?

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David Malicky

The site you posted was what helped me get my edges to the level they reach today. An excellent site and is where I learned about Tsunesaburo Stanley replacement blades and their Japanese planes in general. My woodworking hasn't been the same since discovering this site. For anyone interested in learning about different blades and an effective sharpening method.

I'd hardly say my testing was rigorous in this case, just an impression. Both alloys do a good job, significantly better than stock Stanley/Bailey blades.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au